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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

Alfalfa weed control

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MarkinMO

04-20-2005 06:48:50




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Anyone have any suggestions on what to use on new a new alfalfa stand to control fescue and a some broadleaf weeds? Last fall I plowed about 3 or 4 acres of mostly fescue then went over about 3 times with disc. About a month ago I broadcast the alfalfa seed and now have a good stand about 1 - 2 inches tall. Unfortunately, some of the fescue is coming back and of course a few weeds. Would I have been better off to spray Roundup on the area prior to plowing last fall? I'd like to know as I plan to do some additional plowing this year. Is there anything I can use at this point and not damage the alfalfa? Thanks!

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kyhayman

04-20-2005 17:17:30




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to MarkinMO, 04-20-2005 06:48:50  
If needed, I've used a clean up spraying of Gramoxone over dormant alfalfa or before regrooth after cutting. Usually I figure on the first cutting being a mess of annual weeds, by year 2 normally pretty straight. If its seeded with grass except orchard expect the Gramoxone to take it out (it will thin the orchard grass but it normally recovers). Deadly nightshade and cockleburrs are really the only ones I feel I have to get on top of chemically.

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Hugh MacKay

04-20-2005 13:26:18




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to MarkinMO, 04-20-2005 06:48:50  
Markin: My first reaction is you either get the weeds before you plant the alfalfa, or you use the mower. If anyone can tell me the economic sence of chasing down annual broadleaf weeds in any hay crop, with chemicals, now that's one I got to see. Really, chasing annual broadleaf weeds in a perennial crop, some guys got rocks between the ears. Yes, by all means go after the grasses on new proposed plantings before hand with Roundup. Any grasses you have there, in my opinion, may as well stay.

I grew alfalfa for many years and many of those years were before the days of Roundup. The very best alfalfa I ever grew came in a rotation with corn. I rotated 3 years corn then 4 to 5 years alfalfa. Always cleaned up the weeds in the corn crop, thus when alfalfa was planted nothing left but annual weeds. Just mow those before they go to seed and that is the end of them in alfalfa, or any other hay crop for that matter. Another item I learned many years ago is never spread manure on alfalfa, work it into the corn.

Believe me, these two crops each leave the soil in great shape for the other. It is even better if corn is coming off as grain. Alfalfa will fix N for the corn crop. Manure and corn stalks will build the K for the alfalfa crop. This last one on the K really surprised me when soil test results for alfalfa planting came back with little K reqiuirment. That one didn't happen quickly, but rather 10 years into the rotation, and was a gradual build up of the soil.

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WyoDave

04-20-2005 15:06:49




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-20-2005 13:26:18  
Well I'll argue that with you. In the west there are huge advantages of a weed free Alfalfa. Say you're taking 2 tons to your first cutting. If you don't spray it and get a lot of annual weeds that hay will be worth $50-60 a ton as cow hay for a total of $100-120 an acre. Now if you spray it and sell it has dairy or horse hay for $120 a ton for a total of $240 an acre there is $120 difference an acre between the two. If you can't spray it for that, than yes don't bother, but if you can, and you have a high quality hay market than you'd be better off spraying. We spray new seedings with no cover crop annually for broadleaf weeds. It might be a location thing though.
David

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Hugh MacKay

04-20-2005 16:14:29




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to WyoDave, 04-20-2005 15:06:49  
Dave: I think you are quite right on the location matter. So often on this forum You see guys either looking for or giving advice we know will not work everywhere in North America. We know tractor problems will be the same in WY as they are in MA, ON, etc. Crop conditions and practices will differ, thus guys should really watch closely for local advice.

I usually stay away from these crop questions, unless quite local. I farmed in an area with 45" annual rainfall. My soil was 8' sandy loam on top of gravel, and water table was always at that gravel level. We quite regularly harvested 12 ton of dry alfalfa hay, per acre, per year. Alfalfa, virtually crowded out everything except grass. A few annual weeds in that first cutting of alfalfa, didn't bother old holsteins very much. Wouldn't bother the horses either, just the owners. I know what those guys are like, it's worth a $1,000. per ton to sell them hay.

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WyoDave

04-20-2005 16:24:17




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-20-2005 16:14:29  
Yeah. In a country this large location makes the whole difference. 6 tons to the acre here is considered good, however it will usually test 180-220 rfv value making it desireable hay. We have about 1000 acres of alfalfa, alfalfa/grass, and grass hay here and have shipped hay to about every state in the nation and several different countries so quality is our foccus. All our hay is put up in small square bales too. Around here we underseed all our alfalfa seedings with grass and its pretty much straight alfalfa for 3 years than as the alfalfa thins we get about 3 years of an alfalfa/grass mix and than we usually run straight grass for about 3 years. When the nitrogen requirements become high we plow out the grass, grow a couple years of rowcrops to break any disease cycles and than seed it down again. Seems to be working great for us right now. David
PS. I saw about your health on the Farmall board. Hope everything works out well for you.

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Hugh MacKay

04-20-2005 16:52:57




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to WyoDave, 04-20-2005 16:24:17  
Dave: Rather interesting on the grass - alfalfa mix as that is precisely how I did it, and with much same results. Sounds as though my alfalfa stayed around bit longer. At 4-5 years I would be plowing under 75% alfalfa. Between the fixed N and manure, it would grow the first crop of corn. Corn a great time to get the weeds. My crops were basically all farm fed, and that is a big difference from your operation.

It think the health thing will come, just needs a bit of self disipline. Just couldn't resist that little one about old folks lining up for lunch, 3/4 hour after breakfast. While Marg. is being quite vicious with my kitchen visits, she is actually being very helpful and supportive in making sure I get through this. She never did like anyone in her kitchen until it was time to eat.

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Allan in NE

04-20-2005 13:46:01




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-20-2005 13:26:18  
Hey Hugh,

What say we write this one down? We totally agree on this one. :>)

Allan



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Allan in NE

04-20-2005 13:43:00




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-20-2005 13:26:18  
Hey Hugh,

What say we write this one down? We totally agree on this one. :>)

Allan



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Hugh MacKay

04-20-2005 14:06:15




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to Allan in NE, 04-20-2005 13:43:00  
Allan: Well it's not really a first, we have agreed before. Kim will keep it all in the archives.

On the disagreements, they will in all likelyhood happen again, just the nature of the beasts involved. Biggest problem I see with our disagreements, they wouldn't look near as bad if other guys didn't get all hyper.



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Tim(nj)

04-20-2005 09:54:29




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to MarkinMO, 04-20-2005 06:48:50  
Check the label for Pursuit. We used to use it in soybeans before RR came along and I remember that it could be used in alfalfa, too.



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WyoDave

04-20-2005 08:10:11




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to MarkinMO, 04-20-2005 06:48:50  
There are several options for you to choose from to provide control. Broadleaf weeds can be controlled with 2,4-DB which is sold with several different trade names. I think Poast, or Poast Plus is labeled for fescue control, there are others like Pursuit that control grass, but I'm not sure fescue is on the list. It might work, but its not necessarily labeled for it, I can't tell you for sure. Rate of spray can be even more critical than ususal in new seeding alfalfa - too much and you harm the plant - not enough you wont get adequate control. If you are doing it yourself make sure you can apply the proper rate. The link is a site where you can check out the pesticide label for about any chemical.
David

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Big Marv

04-20-2005 08:24:40




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to WyoDave, 04-20-2005 08:10:11  
It's been fifteen years since I have had grown alfalfa here in Georgia, but we sprayed poast to kill the crab grass and control broadleaf's.



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WyoDave

04-20-2005 08:33:54




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to Big Marv, 04-20-2005 08:24:40  
I sure don't know everything, but I think you might have gotten lucky. Poast is labeled for grass control in about every broadleaf crop out there. It might have an effect on some broadleaf weeds however, I don't know for sure. I know its considered a grass control for broadleaf crops though. I also did some looking and it appears to get control of fescue Poast won't work but Poast Plus will.
David

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Allan in NE

04-20-2005 08:15:00




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to WyoDave, 04-20-2005 08:10:11  
Mornin' Dave,

Boy, are you sure about that? I've had light 24-D drift kill established alfalfa. ??

Allan



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JMS/MN

04-20-2005 13:29:48




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to Allan in NE, 04-20-2005 08:15:00  
There are different forms of 2,4,D. If my memory is right, the Ester form will kill alfalfa, but the Amine form does not. That technology is over 40 years old, but there were two formulations back then.



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WyoDave

04-20-2005 15:23:15




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to JMS/MN, 04-20-2005 13:29:48  
Both 2,4-D Amine and Ester will kill alfalfa. The only difference between those two chemicals are the added chains onto the active ingredient. The Ester is more volatile and can be used in drier climates where the cuticle for the plant is thicker. The Amine is more stable and less prone to drift. The one that is safe for alfalfa and other select broadleaf plants is 2,4-DB. There is also a 2,4-DP that I believe can be used in forests and turf situations.
David

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Allan in NE

04-20-2005 13:48:13




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to JMS/MN, 04-20-2005 13:29:48  
Those side-dressin' ammonia knives comin� outta the ground will do a number on it too. :>)

Allan



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WyoDave

04-20-2005 08:20:43




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to Allan in NE, 04-20-2005 08:15:00  
2,4-D will absolutely kill alfalfa. 2,4-DB is one that can be used on alfalfa. Thats a good point I should have made. They look almost identical, but the little "B" makes a world of difference in this case. Thanks for bringing that up.
David



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Allan in NE

04-20-2005 08:27:09




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to WyoDave, 04-20-2005 08:20:43  
Thanks Buddy,

I'm just an old man trying to catch back up on all this stuff again. :>)

Is it raining up there? Been drizzlin' here for two or three days now; weatherman says it should keep it up all week.

Allan



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WyoDave

04-20-2005 08:36:33




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to Allan in NE, 04-20-2005 08:27:09  
I don't know about Torrington, I'm in Laramie right now, and it just started sprinkling. I sure hope it rains back home, and it sure looks like its supposed to. If they don't get any moisture out of this, the winter wheat crop in Goshen county will be over. It was turning really dark in most places and even browning there. I just can't get over how dry it is there. We could use a few inches of slow steady rain.
David

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Allan in NE

04-20-2005 08:03:33




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 Re: Alfalfa weed control in reply to MarkinMO, 04-20-2005 06:48:50  
Hi Mark,

The first cutting on any new alfalfa crop is always the roughest.

If you have a good stand, I'd just step back and let 'er go. The alfalfa will handle it from there on.

Allan



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