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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

additional hydraulics

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Bill

08-01-2004 08:06:36




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I've got a 62 2000 industrial and would like to make a couple of modifications to it. I'm still more of a tractor rookie but I'm learning. The tractor came with this overgrown piece of property that I bought. It has a Ford loader on it which operates well even if it seems to have been somewhat abused. There is a guy on ebay selling a thumb attachment that can be welded to the top of the bucket. This would be a big help for loading the piles of brush and stumps that I have been accumulated. My question is can I remove and replace the two "spool"(this is what the Northern Hydraulics Catalog calls it) assembly with a three spool, for the added thumb attachment. I am new to hydraulics and not sure what else I will need besides hoses. Could I add a remote valve or spool for a log splitter? thanks in advance for any input. Bill

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Heat Houser

08-02-2004 20:13:48




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Bill, 08-01-2004 08:06:36  
If you purchase a single spool valve with the power beyond sleeve, you simply plumb it into the circuit ahead of your exisitng two spool valve. The power beyond valve will have three connections to make. 1st, pressure "in" from the pump (the hose removed from the "in" port on your two spool). 2nd, "out' from the neutral (or center) passage which will be connected to "in" on your existing valve (where you removed the hose). 3rd, "return" (or tank) will tee into the return line downstream of your existing valve.

If you plumb ahead of your existing valve, you wont have to find power beyond parts for your old two spool which may be out of production. Of course the valve you buy should be purchased with the power beyond sleeve.

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RickB

08-03-2004 15:06:32




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Heat Houser, 08-02-2004 20:13:48  
This new valve would also need a relief valve in it unless the system had one at the pump or inline just after it. I still don't buy the pressure doubling as described below. it just doesn't add up to me.



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Joe(TX)

08-02-2004 10:01:25




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Bill, 08-01-2004 08:06:36  
Adding a second valve in series will work if the first valve has a power beyond outlet. A power beyond valve has a BYD and a RES oulet. Most valves can be conveted to power beyond. Pressures are not multiplied. Some valves will work in series even if not power beyond. Others will not.
Putting them parallel will not work because they are open center(free flow in neutral).
I have added valve to both of my tractors by using power beyond valves. Email me if you need more information. I used to design hydraulic systems for a living.

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Bill

08-01-2004 16:52:51




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Bill, 08-01-2004 08:06:36  
Thanks to all for the help. I've got plenty of great information to get going, I will let you know how things work out. Bill



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Paul Janke

08-01-2004 08:58:58




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Bill, 08-01-2004 08:06:36  
If you put on new valves, make sure you are getting what you need. You may have single acting cylinders, double acting cylinders, or some of each. If the valves won't fit where the old ones were, put them where they will fit, and run linkage to where the handles will work for you. This might also give you the option of making your loader controls a joystick. This is where moving the handle forward and back is for raising and lowering, and side to side runs the bucket. Ask lots of questions and do lots of planning. Changing your mind and erasing is lots easier than cutting, grinding, welding, etc. which is required for changes after the work has been done.

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Coloken

08-01-2004 08:21:56




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Bill, 08-01-2004 08:06:36  
Not aquainted with this particular machine, but if it is the usual "open center" hyd. you cut the line from your 2 spool where it returnes to the supply tank and insert another spool to use for the 3rd sustem. With the older "Gresen" type spools, it is just a pipe nipple and another spool.



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Paul Janke

08-01-2004 08:47:36




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Coloken, 08-01-2004 08:21:56  
It is definitely not a good idea to run open center valves in series since the pressures are additive. If your pump is made for 1500 PSI and each of the valves have pressure reliefs set at 1000 PSI, if both are used at the same time, you now have 2000 PSI load on the pump. The same thing can happen to the load such as cylinders in the system. The cure is to use power beyond valves, or a new set of valves with enough spools for the job.

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RickB

08-01-2004 09:35:37




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Paul Janke, 08-01-2004 08:47:36  
Plumbing an additional open center valve to the 'out' port of an existing valve is not good practice. However the concept of doubling the pressure load on the pump is hogwash. Problems with this type of installation are in the area of the spool seals, and other parts of the first valve that are designed for low pressure return oil, not oil subject to high pressures from another valve/cylinder downstream. If the existing valve is power beyond capable, use flow from its power beyond port to feed the additional valve.

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Paul Janke

08-01-2004 12:37:32




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to RickB, 08-01-2004 09:35:37  
I am under the impression that the pressure relief valve works according to the pressure drop across it. If that is true, raising the outlet pressure (by having a valve in use from beyond it) would mean the pressure above it would be the sum of the two pressures. One thing I didn't say is that for this to occur, both valves would need to be used at the same time, and at significant pressures. If I'm wrong, somebody explain it to me. Remember, I've never made a mistake in my life. I thought I had once, but I was mistaken.

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Heat Houser

08-02-2004 20:02:24




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Paul Janke, 08-01-2004 12:37:32  
Mr Janke, you are correct.



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paul

08-01-2004 08:18:47




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Bill, 08-01-2004 08:06:36  
I'm a hyd dummy too, so I'm not much help, other than yes you can get to where you want to go.

What do you have now? so many old tractors come with a front mount pump & 2-spool valve all self contained...

Is your loader using the tractor pump & levers, or does it have it's own setup? It's possible to just add a 3rd spool, or maybe you'll need a splitter, or you'll have to start with a whole new valve assembly, or if the loader setup is self-contained add a tractor remote... Lots of possibilites, can you describe what you have now?

You may wish to add a set of rear remotes (like for the log splitter) and run hose up to the loader for the thumb with quick disconnects.

--->Paul

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Bill

08-01-2004 08:25:43




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to paul, 08-01-2004 08:18:47  
Paul, My tractor has the front mount pump and a 2 spool setup. I guess the frame of the loader acts as the hyd. oil tank. I'm not sure if a 3 pool setup will fit in the exact location as it will be tight next to the steering wheel. Maybe everything can be moved forward or add a separate spool for the thumb and another for a splitter?



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JMS/MN

08-01-2004 20:25:20




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Bill, 08-01-2004 08:25:43  
Wouldn't it work- without any impact on pressure, if that is a possibility, to Tee in to the line going in to the existing valve assembly, so both valves run off the same input line? If you used a double valve there, one could be used for the thumb, and the other for a remote cylinder. Not likely to use either of them while the existing loader valve is being used.



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Mac

08-01-2004 16:26:25




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 Re: additional hydraulics in reply to Bill, 08-01-2004 08:25:43  
I"ve got a 712 loader and the 2 spool with float. An old Ford wrench said use the "out" plug on the end plate for power beyond, not the return line on top. I run adjustable flow dividers downstream for extra remotes. Haven"t had a problem with my hoe running off it except extra heat. Installed oil cooler for that.



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