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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

frost heaving poles - how to prevent it

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Lee

07-05-2004 18:06:26

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Machinery shed revisited:
I am thinking primarily of getting my equipment out of the weather. The workshop will have to wait....'tho not convenient, I am getting by using the basement of the house. Cost is a major factor (when isn't it??), so I have been thinking pole barn type construction, rectangular shape guessing at about 20' x 60' with several "bays" along the open front facing south I suppose. I think this would be suitable for future expansion should the need arise. Metal roof to shed snow load. I am in northern Ontario, SO SHIFTING DUE TO FROST IS THE MAJOR CONCERN. I have inquired about this several places, and so far there seems to be no consensus out there.
As usual, any and all opinions are appreciated! � THANKS !

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Hugh MacKay

07-06-2004 04:21:08

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Re: frost heaving poles - how to prevent it in reply to Lee, 07-05-2004 18:06:26

Lee: Many of these guys have trouble relating to your -40 F temps and the problems associated with them. I lived and farmed in Nova Scotia for years only slightly warmer than your winters. Even guys here in Southern ON have no idea what your up against. In NS we even found engineers who mainly lived in Halifax where the soil is all sand, rock or gravel, had no idea how to deal with clays or loam.

My recomendation is as some of others said, go as deep as water lines in your area need to be burried in traffic areas. When you put your poles in use a backhoe and dig a solid trench around perimeter. Put in drainage pipe so it drains from every pole. When you fill put 1" stone around poles to within 18" of surface. Seal the surface with clay. You can put some drains from surface to your drain pipe below but not next to poles. I would spend my money on presure treated poles rather than the plastic sleeve. Keep the water out of there and frost will not grip the treated poles. Not saying the plastic is bad, just expensive.

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J.C. IN AZ.

07-05-2004 20:42:15

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Re: frost heaving poles - how to prevent it in reply to Lee, 07-05-2004 18:06:26

MY ADVISE IS TO TURN TO A BUILDING COMPANY SUCH AS MORTON OR WICK OR CLEARY AND LET THEM HANDLE IT FOR YOU. IN THE LONG RUN YOU WILL BE BETTER OFF.

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paul

07-05-2004 20:41:09

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Re: frost heaving poles - how to prevent it in reply to Lee, 07-05-2004 18:06:26

Generally, go deeper than the frost line - as deep as water lines need to be burried at least.

Put a collar around the bottom of the pole in the frost free area - some big spikes into the pole, & a ring of concrete. Best not to set the pole in concrete, but a collar sround the pole....

Keep the pole wedge shaped, smaller at ground level than it is deeper. And/or keep it slippery.

Surround/ backfill with gravel so water drains away from the pole, no water = less frost issues.

Follow local codes, this is the best advise.

For some unwanted advise, what the heck kind of machinery can you fit in a 20' long bay????? Car don't hardly fit in that, no way to park a full wagon or a hooked tractor in there. Backing in & unhooking gets real old, real fast. Think bigger. :) (I know, it's easy to for me to spend your money....) But, think this through, a 20' wide building isn't worth much. I'd put a door on the endwall, let the rain & snow fall on the sides. Then you have 60' to drive into with a tractor & baler, or wagon, etc.

--->Paul

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07-05-2004 20:18:27

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Re: frost heaving poles - how to prevent it in reply to Lee, 07-05-2004 18:06:26

Hi, this spring I observered a cottage being build on the north shore of Lake Ontario. The cottage was being supported by about a dozen posts. The work was being performed by a local contractor. When I first noticed the construction a backhoe was digging the holes for the posts and then I noticed these black tubes like giant road pilons being delivered. This aroused my curiousity, so I went over and talked to the foreman and he said these things replace sona tubes and are made of a black slippery plastic on the outside so the frost can't latch onto them. Also they have bottom ring on them that prevents them from lifting. He said they only have to be put down about 3 ft, put the post in the center and fill will concrete, then back fill the hole till about 6 inch from top then put 1" thick 2x2 ft section of styrofoam around the top then back fill the remainder.

I don't know what these pilons are called but any building supplier should know about them.

Good Luck
JB

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kyhayman

07-05-2004 19:41:12

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Re: frost heaving poles - how to prevent it in reply to Lee, 07-05-2004 18:06:26

Last time I was in western Canada they said they put concrete piers down 8' and then put the poles on top of them.

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rustyfarmall

07-05-2004 18:53:24

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Re: frost heaving poles - how to prevent it in reply to Lee, 07-05-2004 18:06:26

Here in Iowa we figure that 3 feet deep will get you below the frost level, and to really play it safe, go down 4 feet. I would assume that up where you are the frost level would be considerably deeper? Anyhow, I would think if you can get those poles planted below the frost level then there should be no problem, but I certainly am no expert on such issues. Do you have such a thing as an agriculture extension office or something of this nature? They should be able to give some answers.

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Rich Iowa

07-05-2004 18:44:27

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Re: frost heaving poles - how to prevent it in reply to Lee, 07-05-2004 18:06:26

Here in Iowa posts need to be a min. of 3, 3 and a half feet deep to help prevent heaving, but w/ a pole barn I think you'd need to go deeper, say 5, 6 foot if you can. If you can't do that, you probably could go down 3 foot and place a footing twice as wide and as deep as the post is wide and set the post on it. Just pack the dirt back around it really well. Hope this helps

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joe in Pa.

07-05-2004 19:01:49

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Re: Re: frost heaving poles - how to prevent it in reply to Rich Iowa, 07-05-2004 18:44:27

ask around and find out how deep they lay under ground water lines in your area and make sure your poles are that deep. also make sure that the part of the pole under ground is smooth. not only can frost get under a pole and lift it, it can also grip the sides of the pole and lift it.

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Kens640

07-05-2004 19:25:54

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Re: Re: Re: frost heaving poles - how to prevent i in reply to joe in Pa., 07-05-2004 19:01:49

As a disabled former contractor , I was always told to not set them any less than 3' . If possible 4' . The city water & natural gas lines are 4-5' deep . They say if any traffic is near the pipes or poles it tends to drive the frost level deeper . Put a good amount of gravel around the poles for drainage too . I built my pole barn a few years ago . My ground omly has 1-2" of topsoil on clay & rock so holes were hard digging with my tractor/posthole digger . Broke alot of shear pins & hardened bolts . But I went as close to 4' as possible . Good luck . Ken C

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