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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

kyhayman more

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txblu

06-22-2004 08:03:53




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The post was getting obscure.

So what I hear is that it (34-0-0) granules can be broadcast over the crop stubble (after the hay cut/removal) and will lie on top of the soil, but will be absorbed into the soil, not evaporate into the atmosphere.

Is that correct?

What I'm driving at is top dressing after 1st cutting. I put out 300#/ac of triple 17 (with full mineral and all) at planting, but my sudan looks awful. Not green at all. The seed did however, lay for a couple of weeks before we got enough moisture to germinate it and another couple of weeks at the 2" height before significant moisture arrived.

Additionally, this is a leased field which I didn't get plowed till this spring (had a fair amount of weed debris on it) and it may be using all the N I applied to digest the old plant matter. It's up to the 1 to 2 ft height now and I am reluctant to fert now. Thought I'd wait till after the 1st cut. It should start booting around 4 to 5 ft.

Thanks for the reply. I'm sure lots of folks are interested in this answer.

Mark

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khayman

06-22-2004 18:12:50




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 Re: kyhayman more in reply to txblu, 06-22-2004 08:03:53  
Thurlow beat me to it :-). You are correct ammonium nitrate does absorb soil and atmospheric water to become a liquid (rather than a gas like urea does). That liquid then goes into the soil (the N never forms ammonia, a gas, only ammonium (a liquid). It still wont do much until it gets some rain, and the nitrate fraction can leach out in a heavy rain. In our humididty, when I top dressed it over sweet corn with a 5 ton buggy, it disappeared into the soil in less than 2 days (note, I NEVER cultivated the corn, I'm a notil disciple (nothing every gets incorporated since 1995 here)).

The triple 17 is putting on 54# actual N as diammonium and as urea. At least 3/4 of the N in triple 17 is the urea fraction and subject to going away into the atmosphere if not incorporated in the soil. I'd agree with your analysis, that the N is being tied up in breakdown of the previous crop.

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txblu

06-23-2004 05:44:26




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 Re: Re: kyhayman more in reply to khayman, 06-22-2004 18:12:50  
The chemicals used here for the 34 part is Ammonium Nitrate and Nitrite in like a 30/70 proportion. I read once what the difference is but don't remember. No Urea is used.

Thanks for the reply.

Soon as I cut the last round this year, I will plow the stubble under and next year should have a super crop with less fert. Probably will have time for a soil test.

One problem I have with soil tests is that here, K is abundant in the soil, but the soil won't turn it loose for the plants to use. So you have to tease it by adding some then it will let go....so says the local ag guy.

Mark

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kyhayman

06-23-2004 19:47:23




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 Re: Re: Re: kyhayman more in reply to txblu, 06-23-2004 05:44:26  
You are correct on the 34-0-0. Chemically it is (NH4+)(NO3-). The diammonium and urea I was referring to is in the 17-17-17. It may vary if it is blended in bulk but in the bagged form it is generally rich in urea nitrogen. Most of it is blended at Cargills plan in Louisiana and then labelled for whoever and shipped out. You can usually tell where a complete mix is made by the analysis, around here triple 17 is scarece as hens teeth, 19-19-19 being the blend of choice b/c it is what comes out of Ohio and Owensboro (KY). That uses all urea nitrogen.

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txblu

06-24-2004 07:21:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: kyhayman more in reply to kyhayman, 06-23-2004 19:47:23  
10-4

We have a smorgasboard here. The plant mixes it for you, on the spot with, of all things, a cement mixer (less the truck chassis). Uses a bobcat to scoop it up. Guy in the shack gives you (customer) a ticket to give to him which tells him how to build the load...fill with N to x lbs then P to y lbs and so on.

Mark



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thurlow

06-24-2004 11:30:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: kyhayman more in reply to txblu, 06-24-2004 07:21:20  
A matter of semantics I suppose, but I suggest that the plant is actually "blending", rather than "mixing"..... ..



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John in IN

06-22-2004 19:26:48




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 Re: Re: kyhayman more in reply to khayman, 06-22-2004 18:12:50  
kyhayman,

Some advise on alfalfa fertilizing program. Should you fertilize after each cutting of alfalfa? I put lime on last fall. I fertilized late March. Took first cutting June 2.

Thanks, John



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kyhayman

06-22-2004 19:43:43




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 Re: Re: Re: kyhayman more in reply to John in IN, 06-22-2004 19:26:48  
"I havent decided yet :-)". Pros and cons. The best growers, that I try to learn from all tell me to fertilize after first and second with 100# of DAP and 100# of muriate. Then they fertilize with P & K to soil test in the fall, some use Boron and some dont, depends on soils. They dont fertilize before the 1st cutting to reduce the grass yield (and increase the RFV) of the hay.

I've tried that, and tried putting it all in up front, and all in the fall (I do sample every field, every year). Last year I took a leap of faith and didnt fertilize any field that tested high. Couldnt tell it made much difference. So far, this year I tried putting my money where my soil test was calling for it and bought 25 tons of muriate and only 3 tons of DAP (plus my ammonium nitrate). Biggest surprise was in wheat, where I put the full K rate on my yields tripled, got more bang than I did out of the nitrogen).

K is your big need b/c it reduces winter kill and longivity of stand. Have to watch putting too much down as alfalfa will take up excess K. P is of little concern here b/c 80% of our soils test naturally above the detectable range of the lab. Yet no matter how much we over apply K it is almost impossible to build up much (very high CEC of soils).

I still havent given you an answer to your question :-). So much depends on how much you put down up front in relation to your soil test. I'd like to see 50% of it down up front and 50% after the second cutting. Maybe if you give me your soil test results and what you already put down (as well as soil type, name if you have it) I can tell you better.

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John in IN

06-23-2004 19:44:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: kyhayman more in reply to kyhayman, 06-22-2004 19:43:43  
Thanks for the info. You have answered my question for a outline on a good program. It is a clay soil. I had my fatherinlaw this spring spread whatever he was spreading on his bean ground. Probally not a good pratice. I do believe it was 250# or 300# to the acre but not sure what it was. I am going to soil test this fall and start a more precise program as I am adding more hay ground. It does make since not to fertilize early spring before first cutting to cut down on the grasses in alfalfa. Never thought of that. Thanks again, When I get a soil test I will update you on the findings.

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thurlow

06-22-2004 10:05:37




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 Re: kyhayman more in reply to txblu, 06-22-2004 08:03:53  
Farmer's answer based on experience and locally accepted practice. Ammonia Nitrate (34-0-0)can be broadcast with little or no loss at any time (only exception I've found is with extremely heavy rain which may wash it away before it's absorbed); Urea (46-0-0) is used when temperatures are below the mid-70s or when it's gonna be incorporated immediately because of loss to evaporation/volatilization. Locally Urea is cheaper per unit of nitrogen and there is a "trade-off" when one must decide when the loss rate is unacceptable. I fertlize after each cutting of Sudex with A N; using 30-60 # actual N, depending on conditions in each field. Liquid (Uran?) nitrogen is no longer available locally; both dealers handling it have gone out of business; used to use it and liked it; you could almost see the rust forming on the equipment, which belonged to the dealers, which probably contributed to their demise.....

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txblu

06-23-2004 05:49:42




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 Re: Re: kyhayman more in reply to thurlow, 06-22-2004 10:05:37  
Interesting comment about dealer's equipment. I had a fert dealer who hadn't the foggiest notion what a grease gun was and is currently under. Sometimes, I would grease his equip before I put out my load cause I felt I might have a breakdown (due to his neglect) before I got finished.

The survivor (dealer still in business) has all zerks wet, chains lubed, and general repair of gondola very good.

Mark

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