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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

All around planting and crop help?

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John

11-26-2003 07:37:52




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I am just starting out to buy equipment and start farming. I need some help on what to buy and what to do. My main things to plant will be hay for a total of 20 to 30 acres and another 20 acres of field corn and the remain 25 in soy bean which could change not sure yet. I have a 4 bottom plow, a 4 row corn planter which is adjustable from 15 inches to 38 inches for corn or soybean. It is an old international or McCormick style with dry fertilizer and separate hoppers. I also have a drop spreader and a broadcast spreader and a mower/conditional. I know I need a disc, rake, baler, sprayer, and wagons. Is it necessary to have a hay tedder? I am going either with a 2-row corn picker or do custom harvesting for the corn and custom for the soybean. I guess my main question is how to prepare the fields for each crop. Currently there is soybean stubble, corn stubble. I am going to start in planting in the spring. Currently I am going to get some soil test sent out next month to see what I need for the soil. Should I be doing anything right now I know it is late. Also can I plant the hay and alfalfa with a broadcast spreader and then run over it with a homemade chain link harrow or do I need a culipacker? I could also try to hire a farmer with a no-till planter but I would like to do it myself and they are very busy in my area. I am reading all the things I can and talking to the local agricultural extensions. I live in the southeastern part of PA. I have tried to talk to the farmers but most are to busy to talk and some don�t want to be bothered. I am doing this by myself so it will be tough, the extension told me I should get 2.5 to 3.5 tons per acre of orchard grass or timothy hay 3 to 5 tons an acre of alfalfa. And I should get around 120 bushels of corn an acre. Soybean they are figuring about 27 to 35 bu/ac Do you think I will be able to turn a small profit the first year? I know this is a lot to ask thanks in advance for your responses.

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Larry

11-28-2003 05:20:19




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 Re: All around planting and crop help? in reply to John, 11-26-2003 07:37:52  
Interesting topic. I've got an idea John. First let me say that I think everyone here has given you good advice. Let me suggest this as an alternative idea. I'm assuming you're a pretty "bright" person, so here's my idea. Look at some nearby big farmer and make a proposal something like this--I've bought this little farm and eventually want to farm it, but in the mean time I need to learn, how about renting my ground on some kind of shared basis, and I'll work for you in the evenings and on weekends. If the bigger guys are like the ones around here, they are always needing help durning the busy times, and if your ground is worth a darn, I'll bet they'd jump right on a deal like that (50 acres is like 2 hours to work, 2 1/2 to plant, etc.) This way, you'll have managed to eliminate many of the problems the other guys talked about. I'd also bet that the "big guy" will do enough better job of farming that you'll end up with the same or more $$ at the end of the year. The beauty of it is, you'll be intimately involved (if you're working ground for him, or cultivating, etc.) and you'll have the satisfaction of actually farming and will have a real, genuine, financial stake in it to. If you happen to have genuinely top notch skills--like being really good with equipment, mechanics, truck driving, etc. I'd venture to say you might even be able to simply have him farm it and you pay him back by working for him. I've got to say this. I think Paul gave you the best advice...think pumpkins... You might even hold an acre back (if you happen to take my advice) and use your equipment to do the pumpkin thing. If you do have good ground and could do it, the pumpkin, garden thing would be the best bet to actually make money--but, boy oh boy, what alot of work!!! If I were gonna try this, I'd go "organic" and use that as my sales pitch.

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paul

11-28-2003 08:00:23




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 Re: Re: All around planting and crop help? in reply to Larry, 11-28-2003 05:20:19  
Good advise here too. ;)

Many farmers prefer renting on cash these days, but if you find a crop-share arangement you can get the tax benifits of actively farming. That can actually amount to quite a bit, if you are accumulating machinery & tools. A typical split 'here' is 40% for you, 60% for the renter, and some of the chemical/seed costs are split as well. This works well for row crops; hay is not so popular to crop-share, as that first year has lots of expenses with litle return & the renter doesn't know when he's getting kicked off unless you write a real good long-term contract....

Help is always wanted in fall, and if you can drive a tractor it's wanted in spring as well.

The renter will probably do a pretty good job on killing the weeds & getting your ground in good shape, and a good job on fertility _if_ he can run it for 2-3 years at least. Be up front about that, or figure out the long-term fretilizer costs (who pays) for when you kick him off. :) Lime esp, and P&K will stay in the ground several years, so if you rent out for a short time, they will skimp on those items unless you re-emburse them.

This all depends on where you want to be, and how soon. :) From your message, it sounded like you could realy use some extra cash fairly soon. Renting out is the best way to get that. From your message title, it sounds like you could use some pointers on how to grow a good crop. Crop-sharing is a good way to learn as well.

If you want to farm, and were just wondering how the ecconomics go, jump in & have fun. :) You should do fine & if it doesn't work out you can sell the used equipment for about what you bought it for.

Keep good track of your finances, pickup expenses & the like. Many of those items are deductable & will reduce your income taxes a great deal, if you are actively farming & turn a profit about 1/2 the time. There can be some real loopholes that will help or hurt you, and depends on what state you live in for property tax issues, so I won't advise farther than this - but be sure to check into it.

--->Paul

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Doug Rogers

11-26-2003 13:09:18




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 Re: All around planting and crop help? in reply to John, 11-26-2003 07:37:52  
Hey John, I'm with Steve450. I'm only guessing, but I doubt that you thought you could feed a large family farming on 50 acres no matter what commodity prices are or were. Jump right in and see what happens. You're doing right by talking to people and trying to go about it the right way. If it doesn't work out as well as you hoped, you can always sell the equipment for about what you paid and rent out the land as a worse case scenario. Try it and you will have the time (and headaches) of your life. Don't let some of these posts discourage you.

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TP from Central PA

11-26-2003 09:24:49




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 Re: All around planting and crop help? in reply to John, 11-26-2003 07:37:52  
Well, you got a good start on it..... .Since your small, I would rule out No-Till for the first few years..... ..Try conventional until you have a clearer picture of everything and where you want to go. I would seed the Alfalfa down with Oats in the spring and then take the oats off later in the year..... ..Should make for a nice stand of alfalfa the next season. Yep, you can use a broadcast seeder, we do with good resaults.

Remember, start out small! You don't need the biggest fast equipment out there! I remember when we started, had an IH M-TA, Case 3-14 plow, 9ft drag disk, and planted the corn with a '51 JD B and 290 corn planter..... .....Put soybeans out with an old Oliver superior drill and the B..... .We moved up in the world quite a bit since then! Oh, we put in 100's of bales of alfalfa with an old NH Super 77!!!!!

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kyhayman

11-26-2003 08:05:06




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 Re: All around planting and crop help? in reply to John, 11-26-2003 07:37:52  
First and foremost I would recommend that you need to go about it just the opposite from the way that you are. The first question you should ask is where am I going to sell..... .. and how much do I anticipate the selling price to be for ..... ... Next I would recommend budgeting labor and expenses to determine if funding is available for operations at the right time and is labor available. By any stretch of the imagination I can not see commodoty corn and beans at those yield levels being much more than breakeven on cash costs unless you are using them to feed on the farm. Too many folks want to sink all of their available $$ into used equipment and do not leave adequate funds for operating costs and repairs. I would predict that you can turn a small economic profit the first year but in terms of cash profit it would take at least 5 years (many things are a multi year investment and cost needs to be amortized over time (alfalfa stand)).

To get those kinds of yields you are going to need a lot of nitrogen. Right now nitrogen prices are high and climbing. I'd estimate you'll need 6-10 tons of ammonium nitrate plus the P & K your soil test calls for. You'll also have a big outlay for seed and now is the time to lock seed prices. I realize you cant help what needed to be done yesterday. We have to work with where you are now. Get the soil tests turned around ASAP. Getting lime down will be critical if you need to apply it. Already fields here are too soft, going to need a deep freeze with no snow to get trucks on the fields. I would only consider no-till in your location and situation. You will need to maximize time and soil conditions to get alfalfa, grass hay, and beans in the ground. A rental no-til planter will probably be your cheapest and best bet. That gives you a lot more window. If you plow now, most lime haulers will not run a truck on your field until you get the ground worked down. That will also free up $$ that you would spend on tillage and planting equipmet (and fuel) for other things.

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John

11-26-2003 08:18:32




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 Re: Re: All around planting and crop help? in reply to kyhayman, 11-26-2003 08:05:06  
Thanks, I know it has to be spread out of the years. I have a hay auction no more than 15 miles from my farm. Right now the average price for hay is from 160 to 230 a ton. And I just called the mill and the corn prices were 2.70 a bu for corn and 7.80 a bu for soybean. I am trying to get the bare minnimum for equipment and work my way through. I don't think the no-till is an option at this point but something could change.

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paul

11-26-2003 09:07:00




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 Re: Re: Re: All around planting and crop help? in reply to John, 11-26-2003 08:18:32  
Soybean prices are very high this year - 'plan' on $5 a bu in your budget. Corn also is higher than average, has been as low as $1.40 around 'here'. Hay prices go way up when no one has a good harvest, way down to nothing when everyone has a yield. Be prepared for this! Do you have storage for hay under roof? Otherwise you will be letting it weather (decrease in value a lot) or selling out of the field when it is at it's lowest price.

You need to put a lot of money into machinery & fertility this first year, and it will not pay off for 3-5 years. Plan on making no cash profit for 5 years. you will be building your assets & soil & getting familiar with what you are doing (mistakes). But you will not be making money you can spend on anything else.

There really is no money to be made in farming. If you are by a city, you could plant 1 acre of pumpkins & let the rest grow up to weeds - make a lot more money.

Is the land in the farm program? you can get about $40 an acre for the row crops, lots of hoops to jump through.

--->Paul

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John

11-26-2003 09:27:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: All around planting and crop help? in reply to paul, 11-26-2003 09:07:00  
Okay I am getting somewhat concerned, how do you guys pay your bills or live if there is no kind of money in farming. I mean, am I venturing into a big mistake here or something. I know it is hard work but I at least thought you could get some returns out of the land. Maybe I am going about this wrong, should I just rent the land out and wash my hands of it. I am sorry if I come off wrong here I am just getting a bad picture.

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kyhayman

11-26-2003 15:51:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All around planting and crop h in reply to John, 11-26-2003 09:27:30  
Concerned is a good thing! I started 25 years ago as a custom hay harvester. Worked full time off the farm and sunk everything back into cattle and a down payment for 8 years. Then I bought land. I had almost no money left over for equipment. Couldnt get long term financing. I farmed 6 years on an annual note. Still kept a full time job. Finally was able to farm full time. My annual interest payment was equal to my off farm salary ($25,000/yr). Farmed full time for a few years but health insurance forced me back into the public workforce. Cash flow is what kills most people starting out. That's why I worked off the farm then.

I spent 20 of my 25 years 'plowing' everything I made back into the business. Just in the last 5 years have I not had to worry about losing everything if I had a disaster. I've sunk $2000 worth of seed into an alfalfa field, get a perfect stand, only to see it die 2 weeks later and have to redo it. Farming is a capital intensive business. One week 6 years ago I lost 12 cows to salmonella. Spent $3000 (not budgeted)in a week on vet bills and drugs to keep from being wiped out.

One constant in starting out from scratch is to put your money where it will make you money. Figure out where your profit centers are and focus everything on doing them well. Then work on the other stuff. I dont like anything about a horse, but I board a hundred of them. Why, they cashflow the rest of the business. Square bales are my profit center but I can only sell when people want to buy. Right now I'm sitting on several thousand bales. Based on the markets I need to buy nitrogen NOW!. If not for the horses I wouldn't have the $$ coming in to lock my price. I dont want to scare you off, you can make money farming but it takes a lot of long hours and is not a sure thing. I have only ever seen people get into the business sucessfully one of 4 ways, born into it, marry into it, rent or tenant farm into it, or work off the farm while building into it.

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paul

11-26-2003 13:44:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All around planting and crop h in reply to John, 11-26-2003 09:27:30  
I've seen a lot of people go into this headfirst, & spit out broke in a couple of years. I think people (like me) are just trying to give you some reality, so you plan for this! :)

By all means, if you want the enjoyment of farming, and are looking at this as a hobby, go for it.

If you are expecting to make a living off of that small amount of land on regular row crops, you better look things over again.

It would be better if you worked on either hay _or_ row crops to start, and worked into farming. If you know nothing about farming, there is so much to learn - you are bound to do something wrong, foul something up & lose a crop. A hailstorm can do that to you in 5 minutes even if you do everything right.

There is a LOT to learn, you don't just throw seeds in the ground in spring, harvest in fall, & money magically appears. You are the main man, you need to watch inputs, expenditures, sales, marketing, supply & demand for everything.

For example, who is going to harvest your corn? If you will with an old picker, you need ear corn storage and the pickers usually are 38" rows; you need to sell the corn or feed it to your own livestock. If you feed it, you need a grinder. If you sell it, how will you haul it? Are their buyers for ear corn where you live, or will you need to shell it to get rid of it? More machinery, more time....

If you have it custom combined, it will be much easier to find someone if you have 30" rows. Then are you going to sell it right away (poor price during harvest) or are you going to store it on the farm (need a drier & bins - too much $$$ for your size) or store it at the elevator (costs more storage & drying over a 20 year period)?

So by this February, you better know who is harvesting the corn, by what method, and what row spacing you will use. Because different corn varieties work better in different fertility programs and row spacings. And you get a better price if you order seed corn early - like by the end of Nov, or at least end of Dec. So maybe you should know all this by the middle of December.

If you wait until the last minute to decide these things, you will still enjoy the hobby of farming. But you will make about $50 - 100 an acre less than other people. So you won't be _profitable_.

Similar issues apply to soybeans.

Bigger, more costly issues, apply to hay making. You get very little crop from hay the first year, it is a lot of investment spent in year one, to make your money in years 2, 3, 4, & maybe 5.

Can you learn all those details, do them all right, and not get bad weather or a poor market this first & 2nd year? All your income will still be going to pay off the farm machinery you bought. That machinery should last you 5-10 years (longer even, but you will then be putting more $$ into repairs) and so you need to make money for 3-5 years to pay it off, but when you buy it you have to spend $$$ for it all the first year.

So, you can gain _net worth_ farming, but you will not get _cash_ profits for several years.

You need to look at the long-term expenses (land, buildings), mid-term expenses (machinery, some fertilizers) and short-term expenses (seed, fertilizer, fuel, repairs, custom expenses) to determine if you will make anything at farming. You will need to pay the short term expenses from what you make. You need to pay off about 1/5 of the mid-term expenses from your crop. And you need to pay off about 1/25 of your long-term expenses. Any money left after that is _profit_. However, if you are starting out, you either need to spend your savings, or take on debt to finance the mid- & long-term debts. And so you really won't see any cash profit for a while - at least until you get the machinery paid for, usually.

You might want to consider renting out 1/2, and concentrate on learning one or 2 parts of this _if_ money is tight for you. You would get a garenteed income from the rent, and you would not have to spend so much money on all the different machinery in one year. Then in 2-3 years take over the other 1/2, and expand your machinery - as you can afford it.

_If_ this is a hobby and you have the money to spend, then by all means go for it, have fun. It's a good thing to do - it just will not give you much _cash_. Your best money maker would be the hay, but the weather & finiky buyers & demand can play total HAVOC with your income from year to year - over a decade, you will make the most from hay on average, but in any one year, you could actually lose a bundle - are you able to withstand that?

So, we are not discouraging you. It is just real worrisome to have someone ask if they can make a profit the very first year of farming. Sounds like you don't understand the large overhead; the fact that you invest your money in fall or spring, and don't get a return until the next fall or spring - or even for a 10 year period; that weather can destroy your whole year so you have no income but still need to pay all the bills; and so on.

Consider our messages a reality check, not discoragement. You need to be able to pay all the startup costs of farming, plus be willing to survive a poorer fist year as you lean, plus be willing to get no income at all for a year from a weather event.

If that sounds ok to you & you can deal with it, then you should be enjoying your farming 10 years from now - and making a profit. :)

If you need money from this land _now_, by all means just rent it out & take the cash!

--->Paul

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rob

11-26-2003 10:56:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All around planting and crop h in reply to John, 11-26-2003 09:27:30  
John leave your e-mail and I will contact you. Would love to chat with you I started out doing exactly like you are doing now.



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norbert kanzler

11-26-2003 07:57:21




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 Re: All around planting and crop help? in reply to John, 11-26-2003 07:37:52  
Profit NO

You have to be certified to spray it is best to hire a professional to spray your crops too much you do not know and too much danger



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steve450

11-26-2003 11:44:40




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 Re: Re: All around planting and crop help? in reply to norbert kanzler, 11-26-2003 07:57:21  
I think what some of the guys are trying to say is that there is not enough money to be made on 50 or so acers of corn and beans to support your self. If you figure ALL of your expences and payback on your equipment, it will take a long time to turn a true profit. We started out buying some equipment to put in deer plots at our hunting camp and a few years later, we have a 30 acre hobby farm. We do corn and hay and basicly make enough to support the "hobby"(read fuel and seed next year). If we figured payback on equipment and such, we would never make a dime. We never expected to get rich doing it so we're not disapointed. I couldn't ask for a better "hobby" though!!!

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