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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

Michigan Hay Makers?

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Matthew (MICH)

11-12-2003 03:16:04




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Anyone out there still using a sickle bar mow to cut their hay? Just wondering how the drying time is for our hay season when using a sickle bar mower. I've got a few acres and the fellows on the board here say to just buy a sickle bar mower rather then spend the big buck on a mower/conditioner (I like the cost saving part). Just wonder if a crimper is a most when making hay with a sickle bar mower in southwest michigan?

Matthew

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Kelly MT

11-14-2003 19:38:07




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 Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Matthew (MICH), 11-12-2003 03:16:04  
I've used an AC, Ford and New Holland sickel mower and the NH is by far the best machine. It's a model 450 Mounted (3 point) Pitmanless mower. As the other fellas point out, pitman arms break. This mower is also equiped to pull a conditioner as you mow. It conditions the prevous swath as you mow a new one. Also as pointed out, the wind at your back is a problem. I've gone to a IH 5000 self propelled, up to 300 acres now, but I still clip pastures and the road side with my NH. Putting up hay is a satifying days work, enjoy yourself. PK

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kyhayman

11-13-2003 12:40:18




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 Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Matthew (MICH), 11-12-2003 03:16:04  
Nothing wrong with a sickle mower and no crimper on hay that isnt too thick. Low cost and low maint. They served a lot of folks for a lot of years, especially for a few acres.

With that said I'd never go back to one (or a sickle type haybine either). I'd rather run more cows and buy my hay than fight with one. Those are preference issues though.



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Jim in michigan

11-13-2003 11:23:23




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 Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Matthew (MICH), 11-12-2003 03:16:04  
I am in the U.P and I used a sickle for years, until I had to go to a haybine due to making more hay,...I would cut one day and if the weather stayed dry I could rake and bale the next. I have used a crimper, but only had to do that twice,,a sickle would be perfect for you,,,where are you located and what tractor are you using? I have a couple Farmall Sickles I would part with,,,Jim



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INCase

11-13-2003 10:17:58




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 Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Matthew (MICH), 11-12-2003 03:16:04  
some very good points in these posts. Remember you're not gonna be a big money maker at this. I'd suggest shopping around this winter at auctions. There's quite a few in this area (I live in Middlebury IN not too far from you) Check out the Farmer's exchange paper for auctions. SOMETHING else to keep in mind. Are you mowing and maintaining this acreage now to keep brush and stuff down.?? IF so that takes time and equipment and $$ as well so you can factor that into some of the haymaking costs as land care anyway. GOOD luck

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yooper

11-12-2003 19:59:57




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 Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Matthew (MICH), 11-12-2003 03:16:04  
we used to do about 80 acres in hay every year with a sickle mower and a 39 A farmall and didn't have any problems, some things to think about, are you looking at a pull behind or a pto driven unit (I would go with the pto one), have an extra pitman arm on hand as you could break one in heavy grass, also check the sickle bar knives and make sure they are sharp ( it will save some headaches for you)as far as the crimper.. what did the oldtimers do before crimpers??? - why spend the money if you only have a few acres???

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Dave H - SW Mich

11-12-2003 19:41:44




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 Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Matthew (MICH), 11-12-2003 03:16:04  
I cut and sell hay in SW Michigan. I have grass with some alfalfa in it. I use a SMTA Farmall and a JD sickle mower. No conditioner. I cut as soon as the dew is out of the grass....close to noon. I rake it the next day. The third day I go down around noon and bale away and usually get about ten acres baled and on the wagons (by hand) in time for a late dinner. It's a long hard satisfying day. I work at a desk a lot of the time and I'll take haying over that anytime. I love my $35 sickle mower (add $275 in parts to that!) over a $3500 haybine. Six acres does not justify a haybine and I don't think you need a conditioner. If you do decide to condition, find a sickle mower with a drawbar and PTO out the back. The guys here will tell you which one. Good luck, be careful!

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RayP(MI)

11-12-2003 16:59:53




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 Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Matthew (MICH), 11-12-2003 03:16:04  
Son and I put up 1795 bales this summer, all cut with a 7' JD 350 sickle bar mower. Did fine on most of it, except the few areas where the grass was extremely fine, or when the wind was at my back and the grass was falling ahead of the mower blade. Drying time was about two days - cut one day, rake the second, and bale the third. Did not run a conditioner on this hay. Was mostly grass with some alfalfa. Just what we wanted for our sheep and llamas. Also had horse owners who were happy to buy for their animals. If you can get a sickle bar mower cheap, go for it. Lots of hay made with them, over the years!

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Errin OH (long)

11-12-2003 13:59:07




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 Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Matthew (MICH), 11-12-2003 03:16:04  
A sickle used on good clean hay/grass is just fine. They tend to have their problems, as long as it in good working condition, in wiry old uncut for years, full of trash and/or wet ground. By working and planting the ground you have eliminated over half your concerns. Just make sure the ground ends up flat. As far as wet goes that comes down to a timing issue. Not so much the grass as the ground under it. This year around here it was always wet (ground). So timing was everything. Last year it wasn't. Dirt (mud) sticking to the bottom of the cutter bar because of wet conditions can cause clogging problems, but it affected the drying more that anything else. Is a crimpier a must, no. I baled my first year (grass) without a crimpier or a rake. Took longer but can be done, I did it. Crimpers have two main advantages. But both concern stems. First it can save a day in drying time. By crimping (smashing) the stems they dry faster. Second conditioning, Some folks prefer the stems be crushed so the animal isn't eating sticks. Notice neither apply to grass. In fact I couldn't see a differance between crimped and uncrimped. Unless you have a stalky grass or clover in it you shouldn't need one. That said if you plan to mix, I would suggest you use a crimpier. The will grass dry faster that the alfalfa stems, you will loose nutrition as the grass turns brown and leaves dry up waiting for the stems to dry.

Regarding your plans, "Just feeding a few cows though the winter..... if I intend to sell some, horse people want alfalfa mix too". Don't go to crazy on the alfalfa thing. Yes many horse folks want mixes, but they also tend to be pretty picky on the mix itself as well as other things. God forbid their horse get sick, it will be your fault. There will be plenty of guys that will take whatever you have little or no questions asked. I am in no way an expert, but now in my third year (learning as I go) here's a few things to consider.

1st - Just how much do you plan to do? Starting with a few acres you don't need much. I started with a tractor, sickle, and baler. Total investment $3800, with the tractor being $3500 of it. Baled up 400 bales, 1 cutting on roughly 8a of grass that hadn't been cut in two years, for myself and a neighbor. Didn't have a rake or crimper. Those came later. What did the lack of that equipment cost - time. which leads to #2.

2nd - Time. Does it really matter that with an old sickle it may take 40 min to cut an acre vs 20 min with some fancy mower? Is that 20 min (your case two hours) worth $2000. This is where you really have to watch what people are tellin ya. I have heard claims of 5, 6, 7acres an hour. But do the math. An acre is 207' by 207'. divide 207 by 6' cut and you get 34 passes. 34 passes x 207' come out to 1.33 miles. 1.33 x 5 acre is 6.6. So you would have to run like 7mhp to get that performance and not make very many turns. Not to many older tractors gonna do that unless your in road gear. Go look at your proofmeter. Figure 4mph on avg, and you get a little more realistic, 3a an hour. Ideal conditions, 5mph - 4a/hour. Not much difference if just doin a small piece of ground for yerself. But jump up to 40, 50 or a 100 acres it makes a difference. I moved up to a moco to buy time on 40 acres. Cut "and" condition (save the second trip) in one pass, not much faster but one lest pass. Which brings me to money.

3rd - $$$. One of the things I didn't pay attention to at first was cost. Some fool planted in my head that I could get rich on this. I think his comment was make $400 a year per acer, couple hunderd acre, bla, bla, bla. I did after the fact and chucked it up to education. My first year the hay cost me somethin like $4 a bale. Second year bout $2.50. didn't take long to figure that I'd be better off buying it. Going forward I planned, calculated, and set a goal to break even. In other words get the cost down to or under the market price of $2 a bale. Which brings me to the final point. Goal

4th - Goal. I set a goal of spending no more that it would cost me to buy and if possible less (not doing this for a living). Having calculated my equipment, operation, and labor cost, I knew how much hay I needed to bale to get there. (about 800 bales). But to do it I would need to change a few things. I needed more ground. To do more ground I needed more time. To get more time I needed more/faster equipment. To get more/faster equipment I would have to spend more money. So I sat down to figure what cost the most time, what it would cost to cover it $ wise, and how much more product to make up the difference. Settling on desired equipment, money spent and to be spent, and needed production. Having an investment of roughly $7000, spread out over ten years (I know wishful thinkin), and including op and labor it takes about 1400 bales to break even.

In your case with 6 acres, assuming you already have a tractor (so I won't include it in the calculation) you will need the following, Mower, rake, baler. Six acres will produce roughly 500-600, 40-45 pound bales per year (2 grass cuttings) an established bed of alfalfa 3, maybe 4 if you put in a lot of effort and have perfect weather, but since it will be new figure it about the same as grass the first year. I have heard a lot of guys claim 5 cuttings, best stuff ever, etc. but experience thought me to figure conservative, those guys aren't going to bail you out if you figure high based on their word and find out the predicted 50 bales per/acre, per/cut, 4 times a years (200), came in at 37 bales per/acre per/cut twice - 75 bales (which it did, unlike what I was told). Big difference, anyway if you get 500 bales and the going price is 2 bucks, figure $1000 + what's the education worth. You can get a decent baler for $600-800 vs $2500 newer used, a pull type rake for $100 vs $300-400 new wheel, crimper and sickle for $200-300 vs $2000+ new mower(don't forget postage, the fact you have no crimper/conditioner, and the tedder your going to need to spread it out to dry), see where I am going. Just watch what your buying and don't take nobodys word for it.

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Kelly C

11-12-2003 20:14:18




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 Re: Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Errin OH (long), 11-12-2003 13:59:07  
Very good post.
Couple of additions.
Cost of the equipment is relative on older stuff.
My Farmall H purchased for $1100 is still worth $1100 after haying. With good maint it will still be worth the $1100 even after 10 years of use.
Initial price I dont figure into the numbers.
I will get my initial investment back.
(not that I would ever sell my H)

Maint costs is a whole other ball game. Those come right off the top and you dont get them back.
If you use old stuff you will have lots of maint cost. You will find this out on the 1st 5 acres you do. Any weak parts will be evedent by then.
That little wear plate on the outer shoe of a JD#5 mower cost $50 for a new one. I have also learned alot about U joints, belts, clutches, Rake teeth, baler teeth, Bearings and wood pitmon arms. They also only break as the rain is coming.

If you are not handy with a wrench. Dont even go here. You canot afford labor rates to have some one else fix your stuff.
The biggest cost for me was time. I saved some money on the initial purchases, but spent the entire winter working on them just to be ready for baling time.
Now for me this was not an issue. The tractors are a hobby. The haying is a hobby. The taking a old wore out baler and making it new again was part of the whole deal for me.
Now if all you want is a few hundred bales of cheap hay.... Better off just buying it.

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RichZ

11-12-2003 10:49:14




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 Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Matthew (MICH), 11-12-2003 03:16:04  
I use a sicklebar mower in upstate New York. From what I see, my neighbors with mower conditioners can cut a day or two from drying time for grass hay. You have to be more careful with timing your cutting regarding the weather, but in my case I don't want the expense and maintenance hassles of a moco.



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Rick

11-12-2003 05:20:35




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 Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Matthew (MICH), 11-12-2003 03:16:04  
It depends on what type hay you have and what it really means to you. If it is alot grass type really not that much diff,but if it has alot alfalfa crimp way to go period. It will gain one two days.



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Matthew (MICH)

11-12-2003 06:07:30




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 Re: Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Rick, 11-12-2003 05:20:35  

I'm going to drill six acres into hay. Just feeding a few cows though the winter. They are not fussy eater so grass mixture propably work great. Though if I intend to sell some, horse people want alfafa mix too. Just not sure what mixture to use.

Matthew



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Hay Dr

11-12-2003 04:59:09




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 Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Matthew (MICH), 11-12-2003 03:16:04  
third party image

Look at the CCM drum mowers they are $1,800 new and will mow 5 acres an hour,needs only 20 HP and no exterior hydraulics are needed.



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Bill

11-12-2003 13:59:41




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 Re: Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Hay Dr, 11-12-2003 04:59:09  
Would you know the price of a new New Holland 451 and 456 sickle bar mowers? That would be a good comparison.

Thanks in advance,
Bill



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Indydirtfarmer

11-12-2003 12:09:56




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 Re: Re: Michigan Hay Makers? in reply to Hay Dr, 11-12-2003 04:59:09  
Where are you located? Do you know of any dealers in the southern Indiana area? (Near Louisville, Ky) I get a lot of inquiries about low-cost mowers, and don't have any good answers. This might be what these guys want. What kind of results do your customers get with them? What about reliability? Please e-mail me, or post here with any answers. Does CCM display at the National Farm Machinery Show, in Louisville? Thanks, John

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