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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

????/Hay Dr

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Jim B

11-05-2003 05:45:11




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I would like for you to explain how your#1 rated Vermeer Rebel can bale a tighter bale,faster with LESS HP than any other brand on the market.I have been round baling for over 20 yr's with diff. brands of balers including a Vermeer and if you get tight,heavy bales at a speed above a turtles it takes more than 35 HP.Currently I pull a 4x5 baler making 1100/1200# bales(weighed on a scale) at 5 mph in bermuda hay raking 3 nine ft swathes together with alot more HP than you say and if I hit a clump I can hear the governor open.Just wondering how you can do it.BTW Vermeer is not the #1 selling baler in N.Texas.Jim B

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Bud

11-05-2003 20:29:36




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 Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Jim B, 11-05-2003 05:45:11  
I just traded tractors because I have been told that my kubota gst3710 would not handle a round baler,31.5 pto hp now I have a kubota gst4310w\cab a/c and 37.5pto hp and 1 set of remotes.can my tractor handle your 4*4 baler? Do you know anything about c&c machinery's drum hay mower.thanks, Bud



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Hay Dr

11-06-2003 05:20:34




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 Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Bud, 11-05-2003 20:29:36  
Yes, you can use your tractor to round bale hay. Now, I'd recommend 45 PTO HP and a utility size tractor. Your tractor will handle a T-165 drum mower and it will work fine with your tractor. Given your tractor, you'd be best to purchase a mower and rake and hire a custom operator to bale the hay. I am C&C Machinery and want you to know that. We are working on a 7'disc mower for your size tractor but it will not be available until fall of 2004 and will cost $1000-2000 more.

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paul

11-06-2003 10:27:34




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 Re: Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Hay Dr, 11-06-2003 05:20:34  
Do modern round balers require 2 remotes, or just one? He can do it with an electric selector or add another spool, so not a _no_, but is it something he needs to keep in mind?

--->Paul



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Hay Dr

11-06-2003 11:25:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to paul, 11-06-2003 10:27:34  
One set of remotes is all that is needed. 95% of Rebels are sold with electric twine ties. A Hydrauluc twine tie will require 2 sets of remotes.



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red-n-green

11-05-2003 18:50:34




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 Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Jim B, 11-05-2003 05:45:11  
Vermeer may be a good baler but I guarantee that I can make just as tight a bale just as fast with my Gehl 1875! 8 speed tranny with 3 ranges and I will bale any speed up to 6 mid. I also bale with 105 hp though, so I have plenty of power to make a 5x6 bale. Bale density so tight that when I use my moisture tester with the probe rod, I have to push the meter with the palm of my hand to get the probe to go into the bale! I also agree with some of the others about raking being a big part in a good bale. I rake with an 8 wheel V and hit about 17 or 18 feet in one windrow that is a bit over 6 feet wide.

Jay

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Hay Dr

11-05-2003 19:13:27




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 Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to red-n-green, 11-05-2003 18:50:34  
third party image

We can bale in 14th gear with our JD4055 power shift and make 2,400 Lbs bales in dry hay with our Vermeer 605XL. $1,000 says you will be eating our dust.



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red-n-green

11-06-2003 05:43:09




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 Re: Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Hay Dr, 11-05-2003 19:13:27  
Well if my math is right, 8 speeds and 3 ranges is 24 total speeds. So that means that I regularly bale in 6 mid range, that would be 8 low range gears then 6 mid range gears! I think that equals 14? Need I say more!

Jay



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James in NC

11-05-2003 14:17:23




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 Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Jim B, 11-05-2003 05:45:11  
The 5400 rebel uses less horse power becuase it is geared lower than XL series vermeer baler. The bale does not turn over as fast in the bale chamber. Since the bale does not turn as fast it does not require lots of horse power.

The combonation of a spring and a hydrualic compression give you a tight bale. By moving a little slower in the field a smaller about of hay is entering the baler at one time. This gives the hay a better chance to pack. I usely bale in 4th or 5th gear with the standard 8 gear transmission. This will give a tight bale and not compromise speed. If you want to bale the tightest bale in the area drop down to first gear and crawl along, this principle will work will all round balers.

By gearing down the baler it use less HP and the compression system makes a tight bale.

If you want to race down the field look at the XL series.

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Hay Dr

11-05-2003 18:49:33




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 Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to James in NC, 11-05-2003 14:17:23  
The bit about slowing the bale down does reduce HP but both the XL and Rebel bale spin the bale at the same rate. The Rebel has a 4 bar pickup that turns 20% faster than the 5 bar pickup of the XL balers. They both make a bale in the same method. The XL balers have 1 15/16" drive roller shafts where the Rebel uses 1 1/2" shafts. The 554 XL makes a bale 65" tall where the Rebel makes a bale 60" tall. This is a 17% larger bale. The XL balers have the capacity for greater hydraulic pressure, which will require more HP. As far as taking hay they both will take hay the same rate. The XL baler has drop and go and some other nice features. The XL baler is the commercial model that is designed to bale 5,000- 8.000 bales a year, where the Rebel is designed to bale 2,500-4,000 bales a year. The XL does cost $3,000-5,000 more than the similar size Rebel baler. If they both bale side by side and bale the same size bale, the XL bale will weigh 40-80 Lbs more given a 5x4 bale size, because of greater hydraulic pressure. The facts are the Rebel is the economy line for Vermeer and the other MFG's can not even keep up with the Rebel. Wait until you see the "M" baler, it pushes the envelope even more than the XL, due out in 2005.

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paul

11-05-2003 09:18:38




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 Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Jim B, 11-05-2003 05:45:11  
I run an older Vermeer, like it. I tend to farm with the best bang for the buck, don't care what color.

So, I like Vermeer.

But, as you say, round baling is a trade off between speed & power & bale tightness. Those wanting to bale with the smallest possible tractor are going to have to give up something.

--->Paul



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Hay Dr

11-05-2003 06:17:08




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 Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Jim B, 11-05-2003 05:45:11  
In 1972 we purchased the first round baler sold east of the Mississippi river. We have bale 1000 acres of hay every year. We have sold over 4000 round balers from every make under the sun. Just this year, we have sold 94 New Vermeer round balers and 42 used balers. All our balers new and used leave field ready and make them all bale. I can speak from experience because I have taught many a customer how to use another MFG baler. If you want to compare round balers compare the same model year round bale is the only fair think. Every claim I have made I have hundreds of customers to support my claims. The question is have you ever run a JD, NH,Case/IH, Class,New Idea, Hesston, Krone, M&W, Welger, Farmhand,Morra, Fort, Long,Badger,Freeman and other MFG's? I have. I'll put my experience against anyone else's in the world. Just last season, I was on a farm teaching a customer how to bale with a Vermeer 504I baler with a Ford 2600 tractor. William Carter has forgotten more than I'll ever know and I see him every day. Since we trade for every color paint we know how to fix them and make them bale. The secret to making a good bale with any make of baler is in the raking of the hay. The Vermeer just has more capacity that those other colors.

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J.S

05-31-2004 19:58:41




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 Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Hay Dr, 11-05-2003 06:17:08  
Speaking of purchasing the first hay baler, we have baled thousands of bales with a 605C and 605D, now also a XL series. However last week I purchased all new belts for our 605D, 2 10" wide and 5 4" wide, 450" long. Put then on, positive they are installed per direction painted on the belts. When I run the baler empty the belts track very poorly. Running back and forth, lapping on each other. I stop and straighten them and within 5-7 complete rotations they are back at it, folding the edges on the guides. I have tighted and loosened the tension rollers resulting in little to no change. Any suggestions as I plan to be haying soon.

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Jim B

11-05-2003 10:49:19




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 Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Hay Dr, 11-05-2003 06:17:08  
Hay Dr,You and William Carter have not answered my first question which is how the #1 selling hay baler can make a heavier,tighter bale than ANY OTHER BALER on the market today with a LOWER HORSEPOWER tractor????? ????? I am not trying to get in a COLOR war!Don't tell me it is because of higher capacity or the brands of hay balers you have run.Back a few yr's ago Vermeer ran a #80 chain where others ran a #60 because it was harder to turn.I have not looked at a Rebel drive system but if I can find one I will.What are the engineering facts that a Vermeer baler can be pulled with LESS Horsepower????? ????? ?Jim B

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Hay Dr

11-05-2003 12:16:28




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 Re: Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Jim B, 11-05-2003 10:49:19  
To exactly answer your question the main reason it takes less HP is the patented bottom drum design in relation to the pickup. The bottom drum turns the bale on a Vermeer, not traction belts that cause leaf loss. The Vermeer pickup has adjustable cam pitch for different crops and tooth wear, and the others do not have that. If you will notice a Vermeer Rebel baler does not have a throat. The hay goes directly into the bale that is being turned by the drum. The pickup on a Rebel is directly under the bale being formed. NH,Hesston,JD and the others have the pickup more out front of the bale and have a throat area distance the hay has travel to get into the bale. The other MFG's just put their square baler pickups on a round baler. The Vermeer is engineered from the ground up. Actually in Scott,LA in a hay demonstration, a customer pulled a Vermeer 5400 Rebel with a 28 PTO HP tractor and made a 1200 LB bale while baling at 6 miles per hour.

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Jim B

11-06-2003 10:49:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Hay Dr, 11-05-2003 12:16:28  
If the Hay Dr knows so much about Vermeer balers he should read the sales literature that clearly states 40 min. hp,OPEN throat design not no throat for a Rebel 5400.Wonder how many 1200# bales that 28 HP tractor in Scott,LA could make in an hour?



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Hay Dr

11-06-2003 11:43:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Jim B, 11-06-2003 10:49:29  
Vermeer made the first large round baler and also coined the term "Open Throat Baler" because the made the first Open Throat designed baler. If you will read the post, I explain the distance hay has to travel from the teeth to the bale is significantly less on a Vermeer than any other baler on the market. Once the hay leaves the pickup it goes directly into the bale. By the way the last 504 baler Vermeer made with a #80 chain was 1986, 17 years not yesterday.

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Indydirtfarmer

11-05-2003 06:43:16




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 Re: Re: ????/Hay Dr in reply to Hay Dr, 11-05-2003 06:17:08  
If it's not green, you're going to have to show me it's better, before I'll sink my hard-earned money into it. With that being said, I now own a Vermeer 5400 Rebel baler. I wouldn't trade it for a barnyard full of "other colored balers". I pull it with a 60 HP tractor. WAY more than the minimum. I run it as fast as I can, without bouncing off the tractor. I get bales so tight that you could almost strike a match on them. (Well, maybe that's stretching it a bit!) When I started pricing new balers, I found the Vermeer to be priced about $1000 less than the competition. Tough to beat! I'm happy with it. You would be too. DrHay is right about the "secret" to good baling, is in the raking. I still use my old NH 56 Roll-a-bar rake. It's another one of those things you won't talk me out of. JMHO, John

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