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OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES

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dave s.

10-18-2002 15:28:13




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Can anyone tell me if global positioning is better to solve a survey problem and is it cost effective? Our boundries have been encroached on, some by as much as 40 ft. and some angles don't jive.We did have all the footage that the deed called for untill everyone else surveyed.This property has never been subdevided and we obtain the oldest deed but for some reason the surveyors didn't pay much attention.Are they calling my bluff? I am not by any means a greedy person I just want what is lawfully mine!Also to whom do these surveyors answer to cause if I am right I just might have some licenses removed cause Im sure this is going to cost plenty.

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Ludwig

10-21-2002 13:31:41




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 Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to dave s. , 10-18-2002 15:28:13  
In short no.
Look I've spent years working with my Dad surveying it always comes the same way.
First let me note that although the GPS units can be plenty accurate for what you want, subfoot accuracy is not uncommon, it won't help a danged bit. It won't help because I suspect since the old surveys are quite old they probably reference things like "The big oak tree" or "over by the crick" and therefore don't amount to a hill of beans.

Okay, that said theres millions of ways to "properly" locate a piece of land and people have been fighting about it for centuries. This is not something the USA has a corner on, the English and Europeans have problems sometimes 1000 years older than ours.
#1 So you can figure your land based on your neighbors. Figure out all their lines, and you're in the middle. If you don't trust your neighbors this is a lousy situation.
#b figure out your land from "big" landmarks. Like roads, watertowers, bridges. If you don't trust your town/city this is also a lousy situation.
#3 figure out your land from "natural" landmarks. Rivers, hills, ridges. This is a lousy situation, natural landmarks change all the time, its a constant.

So what do you do? Well a good surveyor will try to take instances of all 3 options and make them work. Lots of times one or more pieces won't work, for example one neighbor won't fit. In which case you take the neighbor's plot and fit it in with the other things independantly, which will often give you a basis of error you apply to the whole thing to make it work.

Contrary to most popular opinion survey work isn't perfect. Even a really good TBM system is only good to 0.001" per 100 feet. So if you do a couple miles or a couple hundred miles its easy to start getting into error of a couple feet. Sure you close loops and stuff to work some of the error out, but its never perfect.

I did a job for dad finishing a golf course. There was one little wedge of land left and we had to set a bunch of monuments. I ended up with 4-5' of error in that. Just set the monument halfway and call it close enough, nothing we could do about it. That error was built out of 15 years of project development on 3 computer systems, and probably 200 miles of shots taken. We did the best we could, it just worked out that way...

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david

10-21-2002 07:07:44




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 Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to dave s. , 10-18-2002 15:28:13  
Dave,
A lot depends on your state and who's encroaching. We have one farm bordering a National Park, US Gvt has "crept" the boundary about 12' over the last 60 years; just live with that.

In Kentucky many of the old deeds overlap and have markers such as trees and rocks, also most land was (and a lot still is) sold by the boundary, not by survey. Supposedly while Abe Lincoln's family left KY for Illinois. We have one boundary on some family land that has had a contested boundry since it was deeded to two families; one by North Carolina Colony, one by Virginia Colony before there was a USA. Bottom line to that is over 100 people have been killed over 20' disputed feet (1700's to 1972) and every 15 years or so we have to go to court about something with it, I've offered to give the two other land owners the 20', tell me where they call the line, lets set concrete markers and call it quits. If you are serious, get ready for a long haul.

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Old Iron

10-20-2002 05:58:25




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 Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to dave s. , 10-18-2002 15:28:13  
Dave,

Go to your local county court house and make sure your deed has the same measurements as those listed on the tax rolls. Then check the listings of the folks who's land borders yours to see if their measurements overlap yours. (Here in Wisconsin land and tax records are public records for everyone to view.) I would also check to see if there were any CERTIFIED SURVEYS done on any of the property involved. (Yes, there is a difference between a survey and a certified survey in the eyes of the court.)

I would then take all this information to a lawyer who deals in land issues for their opinion.

My 2 bits worth,

Old Iron

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Sid

10-19-2002 19:25:21




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 Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to dave s. , 10-18-2002 15:28:13  
On a building project I worked one we built footin forms where a surveyor marked off with a GPS Then we set the bolts where the surveyor said to put them. Again the surveyor used GPS. When the track for rollercoaster was set everything fit in place. I find that to be accurate.



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paul

10-19-2002 09:51:05




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 Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to dave s. , 10-18-2002 15:28:13  
Had similar problems years ago, they just try to wear you down, make you bow down & accept their side of the story. As you can tell, still bitter about it....

You need a lawyer, a different survey company, and then spend enough money to let them battle it out for you. The folks got a $500 settlement from the County instead, but were never very happy about it.

We went out there with the govt surveyors, all the neighbors agreed with our position of the propery line, their metal detector found a 'hit' withing 2 feet of where dad pointed to. Sounds good, right? They said if we dig the road open we don't know what we would find not worth it - and then the next day the blacktop was ground off & bulldozers moved everything... No, we were always wrong....

They offered to measure it in front of us from the corner stones, they measured from our side, then they measured from the other side & allowed at least 8 feet for rolling ground (possibly allowed that 3 times, they walked fast for some reason, dad was 70 at the time...) - we have the same rolling ground on our side, no allowance there. Huh.

Cheaters.

--->Paul

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rick

10-19-2002 08:49:28




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 Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to dave s. , 10-18-2002 15:28:13  
GPS will only work if your away from trees and overhead obstructions. Get a survey map of your area, find the closest registered marker, and go look for it. Metal detactors help, as does a shovel. This will save you paying the surveyer to do it, once this is found, try to find another marker withing visual distance, once you have two markers, your good to go get a surveyer. It'll be much cheaper if you do some work ahead of him. Been there

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tim[in]

10-19-2002 03:48:55




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 Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to dave s. , 10-18-2002 15:28:13  
i know now instead oif links and chains and rods they use seconds and such to survey. best to have a survey done for boundry purposes and hire someone from out of the area so they are not 'contaminated ' by local relationships and such. a 4 corner boundary survey is about $600.oo and a legal description one for a deed is much more. but i think the boundary one should be what you are looking for. also good to consult a lawyer who is experienced in these matters and make sure he isnt related or has some business relationship tp these locals who are land grabbing. . good luck!

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DaveInMI

10-19-2002 02:21:36




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 Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to dave s. , 10-18-2002 15:28:13  
I have heard of a GPS device that you use when you plant and then can cultivate with no hands. If that is true, there is somebody with accurate GPS.



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DaveInMI

10-19-2002 02:20:30




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 Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to dave s. , 10-18-2002 15:28:13  
I have heard of a GPS device that you use when you plant corn and then can cultivate with no hands. If that is true, there is somebody with accurate GPS.



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AW

10-18-2002 19:14:33




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 Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to dave s. , 10-18-2002 15:28:13  
Over the counter GPS units are not sufficiently accurate for surveying--typically the computed position is within a circle of 18-metre radius around the true position 95% of the time. At best, the true and computed positions will be within about 10 feet. The use of GPS with differential correction will reduce the error to within about 3 feet, but that is still less accurate than a proper legal survey by a competent surveyor. There is probably an association of surveyors in your state who can provide a list of qualified surveyors capable of doing work which will stand up in court--but good surveys aren't cheap. Like medicine and law, surveyors are usually regulated by a professional organization rather than by state or provincial agencies.

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RayP(MI)

10-18-2002 17:52:45




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 Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to dave s. , 10-18-2002 15:28:13  
The typical GPS won't get you exact boundaries, their accuracy is typically in the range of tens of feet. Good enough for hand grenades, not for exact surveying! Depending when your borders were laid out, there's a good possibility that they're off by many feet. Around here, (central Michigan) informal boundaries were often just paced off. Depending on the man's pace....



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Dick Davis

10-19-2002 04:13:42




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 Re: Re: OFF TOPIC SURVEY WOES in reply to RayP(MI), 10-18-2002 17:52:45  
Surveyors vary in quality of work just like most individuals. I strongly agree that you hire an out of area-no local relatives- surveyor. But the problem is resolving the differences between two surveys, who is correct and how is the dispute settled? Our local expert surveyed my neighbors 20 acres and years later did mine - he kept moving his own old markers!



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