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Knotter diagnostic guide that I found online

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lastcowboy32

09-10-2015 08:03:20

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Had my auction find 276 ticking like a clock. 500 bales, no misses; then wtf? I look back and it's spitting out one stringed bales.

The 3/8" bolt that holds the knotter tail came out of the right hand knotter, and the billhook/wiper arm assembly fell down onto the twine fingers.

Back to the shop to turn it over by hand a few times. The needles would string the knotter, but it wouldn't make a knot.

Called my brother and my cousin. My brother said that this has happened on his NH575 (which uses pins with cotter keys) twice over the years (granted, he bales 30,000 small square per year; so his gets a lot more use). My cousin uses double-nutted 3/8" bolts, and it's happened to him. He says that he now checks the bolts every time he changes twine.

Anyway, they pointed me at a few things to look at. I also found this online guide to be handy.

Link

Luckily, we picked up all of our edible hay that was down before this happened, and we were just doing some bedding on a weedy field that our neighbor is letting us rehabilitate for next year.

Looks like my twine finger arm is bent, not loading the billhook.

When I put this back together, I'm going with the double-nutted 3/8" bolt method. I'm also thinking that it might be smart to weld up a little frame over the top of the bale chamber so that I can mount a safety chain to each side that would catch the bill hook/wiper arm assembly if the bolt pops out or breaks.
My brother says that they probably used locknuts originally, but my experience with locknuts is that they're a throwaway item. Once they've been done/undone a time or two; they're not locknuts anymore. It's also not smart to just hammer these bolts down with a lot of torque and threadlocker; because the assembly is supposed to be able to ride up and down a little.

Live and learn. Just another item to keep an eye on.

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Hay hay hay

09-13-2015 13:55:30

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Re: Knotter diagnostic guide that I found online in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-10-2015 08:03:20

Odd coincidence but after many years of baling, the bolt came out of the knotter frame tail on my 276 a couple weeks ago.
In my case it sheared the pin that holds the gear that fits in the worm and drives the twine discs. Those little pins are hard to find.

Oh well knotter problems keep us from getting bored.

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lastcowboy32

09-14-2015 08:52:04

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Re: Knotter diagnostic guide that I found online in reply to Hay hay hay, 09-13-2015 13:55:30

Hay hay hay said: (quoted from post at 13:55:30 09/13/15) Odd coincidence but after many years of baling, the bolt came out of the knotter frame tail on my 276 a couple weeks ago.

In my case it sheared the pin that holds the gear that fits in the worm and drives the twine discs. Those little pins are hard to find.

Oh well knotter problems keep us from getting bored.

Your comment may be prophetic. I think that my twine fingers are OK now, but I noticed that my twine discs are out of time. I'm not sure how to explain it, but the rear-most disc, which has fewer notches than the other discs have. When my needles initially thread the twine disc, the initial twine should lay in the notch in all of the discs, including the rear-most.
As it is right now, it doesn't.

I'm trying to figure out what "times" the stack of twine discs so that they align correctly.
This post was edited by lastcowboy32 at 08:53:18 09/14/15.

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Hay hay hay

09-14-2015 17:29:24

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Re: Knotter diagnostic guide that I found online in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-14-2015 08:52:04

prophetic? Be careful this is a tractor forum. Big or unusual words are very suspect.

You ain't one a them big city commies are you?

I realized the gear pin was sheared on my baler only because the accumulated oil, grease and chaff was disturbed.
If you can move the top twine disc by hand or by prying....then you need to check closer for a sheared pin. Or....If you can lift the gear off the shaft....that is it!

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lastcowboy32

09-16-2015 12:09:32

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Re: Knotter diagnostic guide that I found online in reply to Hay hay hay, 09-14-2015 17:29:24

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Commie? Not quite. I'm from the country. Still live there, but I got me one a those big city educations...so that I can be an educated farmer.

But. A prophet you are! I had my wife turn the flywheel by hand and watched several knotter cycles with no hay and no twine. The twine discs on the bad knotter would only turn once in a while. The pinion gear was always being turned by the cam, but it was slipping on the twine disc shaft.

I used an old wood chisel (that I keep in my mechanical toolbox) as a gentle wedge to see if the pinion gear would come off of the shaft. A couple of gentle taps with a hammer started it right off. Once I got it off, I saw that the "grooved pin", as it's called by our dealer, was in three pieces.
My daughter just ran to the dealer to get me a couple of these grooved pins (just in case) and a hay dog spring...I noticed that one of them needed replacing while I was nosing around the bale chamber.

Here's a picture of the pinion gear removed (I just set it back on the shaft for now) and the three broken pieces of the grooved pin in my hand.
third party image

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old

09-10-2015 18:30:49

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Re: Knotter diagnostic guide that I found online in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-10-2015 08:03:20

Instead of a double nut use a simple lock nut on them. That is what I do on the 271 I use and the 276 a friend has that I have the fun of fixing every time he messes it up

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Tom in TN

09-10-2015 18:20:18

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Re: Knotter diagnostic guide that I found online in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-10-2015 08:03:20

lastcowboy,

Speaking of good websites for information about New Holland style knotters, there's a really great clip on youtube that shows how knotters work. It was originally a training film for NH techs that was used back in the 60s - 70s and is now online. If you go to youtube and search on baler knotters you'll see it. It lasts about 10 minutes, but it is worth watching.

Tom in TN

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lastcowboy32

09-11-2015 09:49:40

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Re: Knotter diagnostic guide that I found online in reply to Tom in TN, 09-10-2015 18:20:18

Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I will check that out. So far, I've always been lucky enough to have one side working well; which turns the whole issue into the old Sesame Street game of "one of these things is not like the other" Usually, I can find a problem by comparing how the two sides act while somebody turns things over slowly by hand.

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RJ Keith

09-10-2015 18:03:49

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Re: Knotter diagnostic guide that I found online in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-10-2015 08:03:20

I had that happen to me with the twine or tucker finger bell crank. Finally loaded the bale chamber with hay (tractor power) then stopped the tractor and turned it slowly by hand looking at it tie the knot. Looked at some other knotters for the same make and noticed the different angle. Set the bell crank to the correct angle and it worked like a champ.

Also, I use lock nuts, just replace the each time you have to take it apart, which shouldn't be often. Also, a castle nut and cotter pin should work well too.

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RayP(MI)

09-10-2015 17:27:48

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Re: Knotter diagnostic guide that I found online in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-10-2015 08:03:20

I've always double nutted mine on my NH 268. Assembly is supposed to be slightly loose. Double nut seems the easy way to set it up.

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