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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

Haying question

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bc

05-18-2008 08:59:24




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Hi, I've been following the board for quite a while and have read a lot of threads over the lsst 6 months.

I was wondering if someone can explain the haying process to me. I read about tedders but not sure what they do, etc.

I have about 20 acres of brome in KS that I get cut for my horses. The guy comes in with a swather and cuts it. Usually at night maybe a little past prime time since I'm at the end of his customer list. His swather leaves it in a nice furrow when done. Then he comes back and round bales it within 2 days if doesn't rain. He may do it quicker but I'm not around when he is there. He could square bale some but he says I'd have to get it off the ground before it rains although I'm not sure what one rain would do to a square bale. I'm sure he doesn't come back and rake it or use whatever this tedder is.

I talked to one guy about a swather and he said to make sure they have a crimper so it somehow crimps it and makes it better for horses to chew on.

Seems like most I see around here use swathers althogh I saw a guy cutting alfalfa last week with a tractor pulling what I believe is a haybine. I never did see what he did next.

I read a lot of stuff here about tedding and raking and conditioning and turning hay over to dry, but I not sure I understand tedding and the necessity to do all the other stuff you talk about. It has been a long time since I've seen anyone pull a rake around here and that was an older farmer. Just swath and bale.

Thanks. Also when I first talked to him about cutting it was in fall of 2006. Cut the pasture that hasn't been used for 20 years in Oct 2006 and came out with some decent hay for horses. I guess the prime time is beginning the first of June when the brome heads out and we did it last year around the middle of June. I'm at the end of the list and we had some rain. Anyway, the horses eat it. I've heard you can do a second cutting in Oct but it isn't as good and we didn't need it anyway.

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bc

05-19-2008 11:23:32




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 Re: Haying question in reply to bc, 05-18-2008 08:59:24  
Thanks so far. I have gone in and looked at all the old hay threads and have followed them. That is how I got confused reading about tedders, etc. (don't know if I saw a tedder if I would recongize it) when I don't see them being used here. In Central KS north of Wichita, I'm just out of the flint hills (Vernon would be in the flint hills) and starting into the old buffalo country. Until I had the extension agent check it a couple years ago for weed management and see about burning, I thought it was natural grass but he says it is all brome. Apparently many years ago, it probably got planted into brome when they did the CRP ground. This is the in-law's ground and we just put horses out again. She wants us to take it all over including the crop ground (120 acres). I'd either keep renting the crop ground out or else if I ever did anything, it would be to plant it all in hay. It is generally not very humid around here unless there are storms in the area so we probably do get fast drying action. It is also very windy all the time.

But I know then I'd need a month or more available to get it all cut and put up which I don't have yet. Some of it would be in alfalfa which has 3 cuttings. My horses eat brome just fine. Last year I put a protein tub out as a supplement but didn't this winter and they are still fat and sassy. Most horse people I talk to prefer brome first and then alfalfa. You can't big bale alfalfa and free feed it to horses like brome.

My cutter also farms full time plus cuts hay. Hay season also falls around wheat harvest so there is alot going on. I understand. Yesterday the wheat was over waist high and looking good. It is more important getting it cut and also hope the price stays up and we get no hail or rust.

One other question, how do tell by looking if it is dry enough to bale or even cut for that matter but I assume if it is not to muddy, they you are ok for cutting?

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Allan In NE

05-19-2008 11:31:27




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 Re: Haying question in reply to bc, 05-19-2008 11:23:32  
I agree,

Horses will eat the wood off the corrals and get fat doing it, so if you're just feeding horses leave it in brome. Very, very hardy and it spreads like wildfire.

You can't tell by "looking" (or at least I can't). I grab a handful and feel it to tell the moisture before baling.

Be careful, as it is VERY EASY TO PUT UP BROME TOO WET!!!

Allan



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bc

05-19-2008 19:53:19




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 Re: Haying question in reply to Allan In NE, 05-19-2008 11:31:27  
My horses eat the bark off of trees too. Alfalfa is probably considered the best around here but you can't big bale it and free feed it to horses or you have problems with founder. The horse hobby people with one horse at home like the small bales they can feed daily. Those with very many and/or also run cattle prefer the big bales. Those that trailer their horses around like to keep some squares handy. Since we keep them at the in-law's 12 miles out of town, don't get to feed everyday.

I got a couple mustangs and last year went up to your direction at elm creek, NE and adopted a couple burros. I put out 2 bale feeders and just let them free feed. They are all fat and sassy. Winter before, I supplemented with a protein tub but didn't this winter. We give them a 3# coffee can of sweet feed two or three times a week. I keep some squares on hand for road trips or in case it is too muddy to move big bales which is hit or miss during the winter. We are in good shape, hay rich and horse poor, which is the opposite of most. We have about 15 or 20 big bales left from last summer yet.

But Allan, I always thought cattle would eat anything. Last couple years, they started cutting and baling milo stalks around here for feed for cattle. Any self respecting horse would thumb it nose and starve before eating milo stalks.

I'll keep an eye on the brome this year. Where I put the horses one section of the pasture, the brome is tall and leafy like fescue. If I remember correctly, as the brome begins to form seed heads (which they say is the time to cut it), it then becomes more stem. Go too long and it gets real stemmy. Correct me if I'm wrong but now that I think about it, it probably transforms from grass to stem just like wheat. Nothing prettier than a field of wheat in the grass stage. I suppose that is the joint stage when the stem emerges?

In high school I spent 3 years driving combine on harvest from Texas to Montana. Probably never learned much about green wheat though. Farmers always wanted me to cut their seed wheat and their down wheat cause I tended to cut lower than others. For downed stuff, I'd cut dirt sometimes. When the boss was gone and we were done, I also won the 1/4 miles drag races through the field in road gear. Back then we used a header trailer and loaded the 410, 510, C, & G combines on the bed of a truck. Can you imagine today telling a 14 year old kid to drive a truck with combine on the back up to the next stop, back it into a road ditch, back the combine off into a field, hook up the header all by yourself and then wait till the farmer comes and tells you where to go? They did it to me without mishap.

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Vernon in Ks

05-19-2008 08:48:39




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 Re: Haying question in reply to bc, 05-18-2008 08:59:24  
Hello bc,
I don"t know where you are in Kansas, I am east of wichita about an hour. I put up a couple thousand acres of grass hay a year. (Brome and Bluestem) The haying process will vary with who is putting it up. Grass hay is very forgiving and still get quality hay. I use both a Disc mower and a swather to cut with. Swather has a crimper but is really not needed in grass hay. Crimers are to crush stems to shorten cure time not to make it easier to chew. Weather and crop density desides which unit I use. I seem to get a slight quicker cure time with the disc mower but I have to rake it into a windrow so time breaks out about even. I put up round and square bales. YES square bales need to be out of the rain. Grass hay squares are like a sponge and will spoil. Square bales make it easier to ration the amount of feed. Cure time is relative to the amount of humidity in the air, moisture in the ground, amount of sunshine, and wind. I have cut hay in the morning and baled late afternoon. I have cut hay in the morning and had to bale at night because hay got too dry in the afternoon. I have cut hay one day and baled 2-3 days later to get it dry enough. Yes a tedder would have helped cure it faster in that case. Everyone wants there hay to be perfect. Sorry no such thing! Everyone wants weed free hay. Nope not going to happen! There can be really clean hay but never totaly weed free. It sounds like your guy is doing you the best he can. If it gets cut and rained on remember he cannot control the weather. A rain on down hay will change its color but not necessarily its quality. If you are the last one on his list and it was put up in June, I wouldn"t complain. (last year was a wet spring) I do not recomend a second cutting of brome in the fall. Seems to stunt the grass the following year. I hope I answered your questions. It"s not an exact science and there are differing opinions on how it should be done. But that doesn"t make one way always better than another.

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Keith in NW MO

05-18-2008 20:26:02




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 Re: Haying question in reply to bc, 05-18-2008 08:59:24  
I just dont understand you guys calling brome a poor hay.



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Allan In NE

05-19-2008 06:48:27




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 Re: Haying question in reply to Keith in NW MO, 05-18-2008 20:26:02  
"Here", brome is considered more or less just a darned weed.

Way too stemy. Makes darned good pasture if it is taken early when "leafy".

I live out in cattle country tho.

Allan



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John S-B

05-18-2008 17:44:43




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 Re: Haying question in reply to bc, 05-18-2008 08:59:24  
I would do a search for "hay" on this site in the discussion forum, that's how I learned a lot about haying. It will take a little while to read through everything, but it is very helpful. Also do a google search on the internet, there are many articles from university extension programs. And if you can, see if you can go out with a farmer and have him show you some baling techniques.



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Allan In NE

05-18-2008 10:34:22




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 Re: Haying question in reply to bc, 05-18-2008 08:59:24  
Next to a sunflower, brome makes probably the worse hay ever. Ya need to get that stuff cut early while its short and relatively leafy.

Allan



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Gleanerguy

05-19-2008 12:42:18




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 Re: Haying question in reply to Allan In NE, 05-18-2008 10:34:22  
Allan, being from Nebraska, I will forgive you for saying that Bromegrass makes the worst hay ever (next to sunflowers).

Apparently your area is too dry to grow reed canary grass. The only thing reed canary is any good for is bedding. It matures so fast that we simply can't cut it early enough in the year (due to the weather) to be dry enough to bale.
It is very low in relative feed value and palatability. Nothing likes it - cattle, sheep, horses - you name it.

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gwiz

05-18-2008 19:06:05




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 Re: Haying question in reply to Allan In NE, 05-18-2008 10:34:22  
You keep saying that, but you can't educate buyers, and you can't grow what won't grow. I live just south of kansas city, and the most common 'good' hay is brome. Only thing common which is 'better' is alfalfa. Some people only feed alfalfa, and some will never feed it. Almost never see alfalfa mixes for sale. Never see timothy or orchard grass or any other 'quality' hay grown here. Both of those are randomly dispersed among the mixed grass fields, but never seen a pure stand. The 'other' grass is fescue, and horse people will generally never buy that. Truely the most common field has a mix of fescue, brome, bluegrass, and warm season native grass. In these parts, brome is good grass. (Most people cut it too late, but all the buyers want to know is if it got wet.)
James

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kyhayman

05-18-2008 09:22:39




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 Re: Haying question in reply to bc, 05-18-2008 08:59:24  
Depends on rainfall and relative humidity. Here in the humid wet east, got to be able to moe it around and get air in through and under it. Swathers generally cut a wider pass that the mowing equipment we use. Here, due to the rolling terrain 8-9 foot cutter bars are about as long as you can use without scalping on one end and riding up on the other.

The tedder will lift, bruise, and aerate the hay. Used properly it can replace the conditioner rolls for increasing curing. The 'palatability' aspect is a marketing strategy. Conditioning refers to conditioning it to bale, not to eat.

Raking turns the hay and also combines multiple passes into windrows reducing baling time and allowing for more uniform moisture contents.

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