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Z120 s blocks crack because they freeze?

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Frank Biscardi

06-16-2001 16:00:34




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I was talking with a very old fellow who used to run the local MF dealership here.He is much respected here abouts. He still has a little fixit shop and gets me parts. I asked him why the continentals tend to crack. He said it pobably was not because they run too hot but because they freeze in the winter. Any other opinions out there?

Frank




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David Waymann

06-18-2001 10:13:14




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 Re: Z120 s blocks crack because they freeze? in reply to Frank Biscardi, 06-16-2001 16:00:34  
Frank: Thanks for getting this disussion going. Here's what I think it boils down to (no pun intended)...We CAN control the health of our cooling system (radiator, airflow, water pump, coolant/water mix, leaks, radiator cap pressure, thermostat, hoses, etc.) but we CANNOT control the weather or the design of the Continental engine--nor the fact that we cannot obtain a replacement block for the Continental engines. I have posted a number of times on the health of the cooling system and I will stand by the opinion of the older gentleman--though overheating can do it as well. Freezing is probably more the cause--especially when you think of the life of these farm tractors. They were exposed to tremendous work and environmental fluctuations. Other tractor brands probably do freeze, but do we not hear about it because used or replacement blocks are available?? My $0.02 on the matter. David, MI

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Frank Biscardi

06-18-2001 18:40:37




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 Re: Re: Z120 s blocks crack because they freeze? in reply to David Waymann, 06-18-2001 10:13:14  
Guys,

Has anyone ever had a Z-120 crack in non-freezing condition-eg. deep south/australia, etc. ?

Frank



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Dan in LA

06-17-2001 17:51:43




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 Re: Z120 s blocks crack because they freeze? in reply to Frank Biscardi, 06-16-2001 16:00:34  
Back when I was younger (20 yrs ago or so), I left mine & Dad's TO20 out in the weather one winter while working out of state. It came a hard, hard freeze (down in the single digits)and even though I had drained the water out of the radiator, the blocked cracked in the three webs between the cylinders top and bottom. I have since bought two more Fergies. Both of them had cracked blocks - top and bottom. I would tend to think that they are more susceptible to crack in the winter time than due to overheating. When heated, the metal should expand. If one of the Z120's overheats and then cools off rapidly, could that cause the block to crack? I don't know for sure but a cooling effect (freezing or very rapid cooling) would be my choice for the reason z120's & 129's crack so often. In 20 years, I can't recall seeing one that wasn't cracked.

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Frank Biscardi

06-17-2001 18:24:34




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 Re: Re: Z120 s blocks crack because they freeze? in reply to Dan in LA, 06-17-2001 17:51:43  
I must admit that when this old-timer told me they cracked because of freezing I didn't entirely believe him. The older I get,though the more I realize there is alot of wisdom under grey hair. There must be some truth to what he says, though you wonder if there isn't some other predisposing factor (metallurgical, excessive temp swings, inadequate localized cooling etc)?



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Dan in LA

06-18-2001 15:14:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Z120 s blocks crack because they freeze? in reply to Frank Biscardi, 06-17-2001 18:24:34  
I wish I knew how to post a photo or two along with this message. I have some excellent photos of one of my cracked blocks. I feel that the block fails at the weakest point and that point is the all too thin web between the cylinders. This block isn't like a regular V8 that we're all familiar with. This is essentially a big cast iron water container. The side walls are thin enough to allow outward expansion due to the pressure exerted by the ice. I would tend to think that the ice freezes next to the sidewalls first, then expands until it touches in the middle. The force exerted by the ice pushing outward would pull the webs in two. It wouldn't have to move much - maybe less than a thousandth of an inch to start a crack. Just my theory guys. Don't try this at home.

Thanks

Dan

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George (NY)

06-17-2001 06:20:16




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 Re: Z120 s blocks crack because they freeze? in reply to Frank Biscardi, 06-16-2001 16:00:34  
I know very little about tractors (just bought my first one) But, A block crack due to freezing would happen anywhere, the postion of the cracks would be random. A block crack due to overheating would occur near the cyl. that got the hottest. The TE20 I just bought has a crack near the number four cyl. which I assume runs the hottest. Hmmm just thinking. This is all true unless there is a weak point in the block near the number four cyl.

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Chuck (CA)

06-16-2001 21:43:53




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 Re: Z120 s blocks crack because they freeze? in reply to Frank Biscardi, 06-16-2001 16:00:34  
Hi Frank,
Well, I'm not all that sharp, but I pose a question.. Are owners of the TO series of tractors the only ones who allow their engines to freeze in the winter? This seems to be more prevelant on the Fergies than on most other makes. I don't have any other reason; I just don't think that's the correct one.
IMHO,
Chuck



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Larry

07-02-2001 11:37:25




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 Re: Re: Z120 s blocks crack because they freeze? in reply to Chuck (CA), 06-16-2001 21:43:53  
Fergies suffer from this more than others because of the wet sleeve design of the engine. Older Triumphs (TR2, TR3 and TR4) had these engines and suffered the same fates. You would be very hard pressed to find an old Triumph engine that didn't have a crack between cylinders, especially between 1 and 2 and between 3 and 4, because they were closer together.

I'll bet almost every Ferguson has cracks between cylinders, but it doesn't matter at the top since the head gasket seals them. Only when the cracks occur at the bottom is there trouble.

I've worked on lots of cast iron blocks that didn't have sleeves and you never see that kind of cracking.

So no, Ferguson owners aren't any more neglectful than others, it's just that these engines are more prone to this problem.

Larry

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