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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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rear main seal shellac?

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Mike in Yorkshi

05-21-2008 12:49:48




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A couple of years ago I replaced the rear engine seal on my 1953 TVO fergie.
Afterwards it has continued to leak so I have finally got round to getting a manual and having another go.
Last time when I put the seal in I put new felt padding in but put it in dry.
In the manual it says "Soak the cap seal in shellac and puch dorn with a rod to fill the groove"
Could this be why it has continued to leak becuase I put it in dry?
Also what is shellac? I have been told its a try of varnish using on wood is that the same stuff?
Is there anything else I can use such as packing the groove with gasket seal or something.

Any reccomendations would be greatfully received.
Thanks
Mike

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John (UK)

05-23-2008 06:00:26




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 Re: rear main seal shellac? in reply to Mike in Yorkshire, 05-21-2008 12:49:48  
You can use the felt seals without shellac and it will seal BUT you must make sure that the felt is compressed completely in the main bearing cap so that it fills the groove fully and the end must be trimmed flat where the sump attaches to the block. What usually happens is that when the felt seal is fitted they just lay in in the groove and that will NOT DO as it will never seal like that. You MUST poke the seal into the groove when the bearing cap is fitted to the block and really compress it using a screwdriver or similar to poke it down the groove and it must go right to the bottom so that it is flush up to the block (although you can't see it) and when you have it all compressed then you trim it of just slightly proud of the bearing block face so that when you fit the oil sump it will compress it slightly and make certain of sealing. It will be no use just laying the felt in the groove and covering it with shellac it will NOT seal. When we did the engines regularly we never used shellac and we never had one leak but you MUST compress the felt seals properley..If you still have problems email me..John

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Mike in Yorkshire

05-24-2008 03:12:24




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 Re: rear main seal shellac? in reply to John (UK), 05-23-2008 06:00:26  
Thanks John
Last time I put the felt seal in then attached the bearing cap like you say above so I guess thats were I went wrong. When I have it in bits again I thought I might be able to see where it had been leaking from but I cannot.
I guess the difficult bit is knowing when you have the new felt packed down to the end of the groove. Should I pack in a bit at a time or leave the felt in a long string and push it in till I cannot get in any further.
What do you think of the idea of applying some gasket seal to it before pushing the seal in?
I have some shellac on order but I think I might dry your dry method as its not arrived yet and I'd like to get on with it this weekend.
Thanks for the info, I'll let you know how I get on.

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John (UK)

05-24-2008 05:03:45




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 Re: rear main seal shellac? in reply to Mike in Yorkshire, 05-24-2008 03:12:24  
Pack it in in short lengths, then you will know if it is packed in properly. No need to apply anything providing you do pack it in, and if you don't gasket cement will not stop it leaking as it needs the felt seal to be the full length of the groove or there will be some part of this groove that has no seal to stop the oil. As I said in the last posting, we never used shellac at all and it worked just fine, the secret is to make sure it is packed in properly. You will feel it when you get the the bottom of the groove with the felt, then pack the next piece in. If you have Tee corks on the block below the main bearing cap, make sure that they are new and a good fit in the block or again they will leak. If the corks are slack in the block and you don't have any new ones, allow them to soak in some HOT water, this will be absorbed and will tighten them up a little but you would have to use some cement on them if this is the case. You should really check the oil Pump while the sump is off as it will more than likely be worn now, unless you have changed it. A worn oil pump will cause low engine oil pressure when it heats up, it will be good when cold. Check the pick-up pipe on the pump that it isn't loose, if it is you will need to braze it into position (horizontal) or it may draw air. I will be here most of the weekend so if you need anything, just email again..John
fergusontractors@tiscali.co.uk

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gshadel

05-22-2008 14:06:23




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 Re: rear main seal shellac? in reply to Mike in Yorkshire, 05-21-2008 12:49:48  
Mike, yes, shellac is basically the same stuff used to "varnish" wood, except the auto-sealer grade is likely not as high a quality as the cans of shellac sold for finishing wood. "Varnish" is not actually shellac, it is chemically something else, but it is used to finsish wood also. Shellac actually comes from a bug and is dissolved in methanol... but I'm digressing here.

Shellac was used to seal some engine components but not used much today since the invention of silicone sealers and the like that works for more applications, and far more forgiving than the 'ol shellac. You can still buy shellac gasket sealer in auto parts stores, in the USA I think it is usually found under the Indian Head name brand. It's red, some old timers still swear by the stuff.

I don't know about the TVO engine, but what you describe sounds identical to the TO20/30 Continental engine rear crankshaft cap installation. There is packing cord that gets jammed down each side of the cap after it is installed to insure no oil leaks through to the backside of the engine. If that's what your doing, you can use just about any modern gasket maker goop from an auto parts store. The gasket goop is quite thick, so rather than soak it, just smear a LIGHT coating on the outside of the packing as you jam it down into the groove.
As far as the seal itself, the origials may have been leather, may have had a felt dust cover also, but all the seals now days are made out of neoprene rubber. If you install the seal backwards it may fit, but will also leak. The feathered edge of the rubber seal goes against the crankshaft.
Hope that helps!

George

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Bob (Aust)

05-22-2008 04:26:26




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 Re: rear main seal shellac? in reply to Mike in Yorkshire, 05-21-2008 12:49:48  
Mike. Are you referring to a Ferguson TED20 with Standard TVO engine?

Both my Ferguson and Gregory's Manuals for the Standard gasoline and TVO engine state:

"Place the rear oil seal, lip forward, over its locating shoulder on the crank shaft..... .."

I assume that indicates a neoprene seal - can't find any reference to a felt seal and Shellac??

Shellac is used in French Polishing and sets very hard?? How would that help sealing?

Can you give me the Ferguson Manual page reference number?

Bob in Oz

'53 TEA20

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Mike in Yorkshire

05-24-2008 03:06:14




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 Re: rear main seal shellac? in reply to Bob (Aust), 05-22-2008 04:26:26  
Yes its a TED20 with TVO engine
The manual I have is ferguson service manual
It mentions shellac in the engine section (section C in the manual on page C32 in the "replacement of main bearings item 9.
I"ve got some shellac on order but i think I"ll try Johns sugesstion of putting in dry and packing down tight. Might get it done this weekend so I"ll keep you posted.
Thanks for the info

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