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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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directions for thrust washers

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Mark from the f

03-25-2008 12:43:05




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Anyone with a TO30 shop manual that could scan and send the pages dealing with crank bearings and setting end play? I didn't get the feeling that TO 35 bearings will work so I going with the flanged and washers.
Any information will be greatly appreciated.
Would like to hear from you TO30 guys on this one. Thanks Mark
jbhofc@verizon.net
-please put tractor info. in the subject box.

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Mark from the fort

03-27-2008 12:46:16




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Mark from the fort, 03-25-2008 12:43:05  
So along with t thick washers, will need a variety of washer-like shims to fill-in the endplay until I get within specs?
I understand that the Clevite bearing set comes with the two washers, would purchase the different thickness shims from Clevite as well?
You guys are very helpful.



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Jim in OH

03-27-2008 18:37:16




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Mark from the fort, 03-27-2008 12:46:16  
Okay.. went to the shop and took it apart... and all of my previous descriptions from memory are correct. NOt enough shims will be too tight and too many shims or missing thrust washers will be too loose... If you don't have enough shims, you could make some, perhaps even a purchased washer with the key notch cut into it... I have a picture, but it is not worth much.. and I won't have time to edit it and post until next week...

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Jerry/MT

03-25-2008 14:51:14




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Mark from the fort, 03-25-2008 12:43:05  
I don"t have a scanner so I can"t help you there. You say your are using the flanged bearings AND the thrust washer. From what I read in the shop manual, the thrust washer, located between the crankshaft thrust face and the #1 bearing can only be used with the TO-30 #1 unflanged bearing shell. The TO/TE #1 shells are flanged and do not use the thrust washer. The forward thrust is reacted on the bearing flange on the TO/TE. On the TO-30, it"s reacted by the thrust washer against the bearing shell/bearing support web of the block.
The rearward thrust it both cases is reacted by a bronze thrust washer between the thrust plate and the block. In both cases, the end play is adjusted with shims that go between the outer thrust washer and the thrust plate. At least that"s how I read it. I presume you know that the # 2 main bearing MUST BE A TO-30 Bearing shell to have the correct oil holes in it.

Hope this helps.

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Mark from the fort

03-25-2008 16:42:09




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-25-2008 14:51:14  
Okay, now I'm really confused. So an aftermarket bearing kit for a Z129 will have FLANGED bearings along with a bronze washer for the rear of the crank along with shims?
I'm just double checking so I order correctly.
Once I mic the crank-I will know what size mains to order. By stating what block it is for (z129) the bearing kit will contain the rest?
Thanks, Mark



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Jim in OH

03-25-2008 18:34:20




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Mark from the fort, 03-25-2008 16:42:09  

Mark from the fort said: (quoted from post at 16:42:09 03/25/08) Okay, now I'm really confused.
So an aftermarket bearing kit for a Z129 will have FLANGED bearings along with a bronze washer for the rear of the crank along with shims?

I'm just double checking so I order correctly.

Once I mic the crank-I will know what size mains to order. By stating what block it is for (z129) the bearing kit will contain the rest?

Thanks, Mark


Mark.. I just put my lower end together acouple of weeks ago and here is my take... I may be wrong, but this is what seemed to work and agree with my understanding.. I used the Z129 main and rod bearing set from Celvite(sp?).. This was the set my jobber could get. It came WITH two bronze thrust washers... The jobber also ordered the thrust washers separately (thinking they were not in the set), but they were.... In the original setup, there isa bronze washer in front of the front main that is pinned and shimmed (later) for clearance and there was a fiber washer on the back of the front main between the #1 crank facing and the front main. This fiber washer is not available (I am told) and the second bronze washer is for this purpose.. so that is what I did... Front washer pinned justlike theoriginal and the second washer on the backside of main loose... It seemed to fit just fine and I have the end play in progress.. a little tight now, but will reshim.... Hope this makes sense... Jim in OH

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Jerry/MT

03-25-2008 22:06:17




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jim in OH, 03-25-2008 18:34:20  
That"s my understanding also from looking at the shop manual, Jim. the #1 main bearing suppoert web has a thrust washer on each side of it, the inside washer taking the forward thrust from the crank thrust face and the rearward thrust being reacted outby the front bronze washer and the thrust plate and shims used for getting the allowable endplay.



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Jim in OH

03-26-2008 10:22:50




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-25-2008 22:06:17  

Jerry/MT said: (quoted from post at 22:06:17 03/25/08) That"s my understanding also from looking at the shop manual, Jim. the #1 main bearing suppoert web has a thrust washer on each side of it, the inside washer taking the forward thrust from the crank thrust face and the rearward thrust being reacted outby the front bronze washer and the thrust plate and shims used for getting the allowable endplay.


And there should not be much forward thrust anyway...(maybe only when the clutch is depressed)... I say this because my 50 year old original engine still had the fiber washer in place for the forward thrust.. and I haven't looked (for thepurpose of figuring out direction of thrust) at the beveled crank/cam gears, but I'd bet a dinner that the bevels are such that the cam resistance adds backward thrust... not forward..

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mark from the fort

03-26-2008 16:08:11




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jim in OH, 03-26-2008 10:22:50  
Interesting you said this. I got her running a couple of days ago the when I push the clutch in, she makes noise and slight vibration.--I thought it was the throw out bearing.
BUT, (with tractor not running) I can push down clutch and then pry on crank pulley and back and forth and the crank will move back and forth a good 1/8".Tell me there is something missing in there.



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Jim in OH

03-26-2008 19:28:40




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to mark from the fort, 03-26-2008 16:08:11  
Probably missing thrust washers or too many shims... with 1/8".. gotta be washers missing..



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mark from the fort

03-27-2008 13:35:04




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jim in OH, 03-26-2008 19:28:40  
Could you tell me more about the thought of TOO many shims making it chatter with the clutch pushed down. How would TOO many shims cause this? I really am wierd about understanding things to the fullest. Thanks for all of you input so far. Mark.
I know what is hurting me is a.) not have the actual crank to look at and b.) not have repair maual pics to look at. Once I tear into her, and see her from the bottom, I'm sure alot of my questions will be answered. Mark

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Jim in OH

03-27-2008 15:15:50




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to mark from the fort, 03-27-2008 13:35:04  
I am still confused, so I am going to take it apart tonight and get back to you..



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Jim in OH

03-25-2008 18:36:08




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jim in OH, 03-25-2008 18:34:20  
I should have added that there were no flanged bearings in the kit I used. And to make it more clear, there is nothing at the rear main for thrust;it is all at the front main..



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mark from the fort

03-26-2008 05:53:12




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jim in OH, 03-25-2008 18:36:08  
Thanks to both. MUCH more clear now.
I could understand the need for BOTH a flanged bushing and thrust bearing.
Thanks for the Clevite info. I'll go that route.
Are you using a mic to check endplay? Curious about that as well.
MANY MANY thanks Mark
I guess the z134 flanged bearings have made me lazy (or just stupid) OR both. Ha Ha
Mark



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Jim in OH

03-26-2008 10:40:57




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to mark from the fort, 03-26-2008 05:53:12  

mark from the fort said: (quoted from post at 05:53:12 03/26/08) ...Are you using a mic to check endplay?..

Mark


No.. I do have a dial indicator, that would work if I had a workable mount, but I actually think a feeler gage is the better way... Best I can tell this is a bit trial and error.. I intentionally put it together loose.. added a fair amount of backthrust (by pushing)... measured clearance at the inside thrust bearing with feeler gages.. then took it apart the front end and took out enough shims in front to close it up to give me the 0.003 clearance and put it back together.. measured again.. and now it is about 0.001 and a bit tight.. will add a 0.002 or 0.003 back in after taxes and measure again.. A real pain pulling the gear each time.. I have enough shims .. but don't know what you'd do if you need more..

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Jerry/MT

03-26-2008 15:34:17




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jim in OH, 03-26-2008 10:40:57  
Jim couldn"t you assemble it without shims the first time, measure the end play, and add the appropriate shims?



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Jim in OH

03-26-2008 19:26:37




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-26-2008 15:34:17  

Jerry/MT said: (quoted from post at 15:34:17 03/26/08) Jim couldn"t you assemble it without shims the first time, measure the end play, and add the appropriate shims?


My memory is not as good as it used to... so I went out and checked and I described it correctly... Answer is "No"... but you could do exactly the opposite... put all the shims in that you have (hoping that it was enough), measure the clearance, and take out the correct amount to get you where you want to be.... basically the shims rotate with the crank and fit inside the Thrust washer between the front rotating surface of the crank and the rotating thrust cap, with the front thrust washer in between. Maximum clearance is with all the shims in.... I hate how this site does pictures.. so try this...
Front

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ---| Thrust Cap

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ---|

|////| |\\\\| |\\\\| |////| |////|=Thrust Washers |\\\\|=Shims

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----|

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Front bearing and Cap

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----|

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Jerry/MT

03-27-2008 19:00:54




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jim in OH, 03-26-2008 19:26:37  
Jim,

Bear with me. I had a hard time with your sketch.

As I understand it, the inner thrust washer sits between the crank thrust face and the front main bearing/bearing support. On the other side of the main bearing support( i.e. the front side of the block)sits the outer thrust washer. Next come the shims and they sit against the front face of the main bearing journal and then comes the Crankshaft thrust plate. Then follows the timing gear and it"s slinger followed by the pulley, the washer and the bolt.

It appears to me that the hole in the Crankshaft thrust plate is smaller then the OD of the shims.So when the timing gear is pressed on, it presses on the Crankshaft thrust plate which presses on the shims, which press against the front of the main bearing journal. So when you put the shims in to move the Crankshaft thrust plate away from the outer thrust washer and that sets the end play.


Why can"t you set zero clearance( i.e. no shims) and then just add 0.003" shim? Or suppose you could only get 0.001" or 0.002" clearance with no shims. You could still add an 0.003" shim and be within the 0.003"-0.007 " clearance requirement. What am I missing?

I"m saying this out of ignorance "cuz I don"t know the details of the design and the pictures in my manual are not clear. I think the timing gear/slinger, thrust plate and front of the bearing journal plus the shim(s) set the clearance. It appears to me that the timing gear is keyed to the shaft. Is it a press fit?

I appreciate your assistance in helping me to understand this. Not being a mechanical design guy, it takes me a while to get this. Never know when I might have to do this!

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Jim in OH

03-27-2008 21:52:31




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-27-2008 19:00:54  
Can't do it your way... Here is a better sketch... the shims set INSIDE the thrust washer... the only way to get "zero" clearance (or the correct clearance of about 3 to 7 mills) is to start big (too many shims), measure the gap, then take some out...
third party image



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Jerry/MT

03-28-2008 12:59:46




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jim in OH, 03-27-2008 21:52:31  
Now I see! You"d have to mic the outside thrust washer thickness and zero would be enough shims to equal the thickness of it.



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Jim in OH

03-28-2008 15:05:01




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-28-2008 12:59:46  

Jerry/MT said: (quoted from post at 12:59:46 03/28/08) Now I see! You"d have to mic the outside thrust washer thickness and zero would be enough shims to equal the thickness of it.


yes.. if the thrust cap were flat on the thrust washer side... as I recall it is not.. it is recessed which the picture doesn't show.. and also the shim pack is like a pile of bellvue washers... they need to be compressed before you really can tell what you have.... Jim

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Jerry/MT

03-28-2008 22:18:09




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to Jim in OH, 03-28-2008 15:05:01  
The devil is always in the details isn"t it!!!



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Jim in OH

03-26-2008 10:16:39




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 Re: directions for thrust washers in reply to mark from the fort, 03-26-2008 05:53:12  

mark from the fort said: (quoted from post at 05:53:12 03/26/08) ...

I could understand the need for BOTH a flanged bushing and thrust bearing.....Mark


"could" or "could not".... ???



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