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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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I'm a believer

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gshadel

02-27-2008 16:06:04




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Finally got a good opportunity to do some snow plowing since I switched my tranny oil to 20W50. My TO had been sitting outside all night in 13 degree F snowstorm. Started'er up this morning, raised the lift, it responded smartly, up & down, like a Summer day.... except it was only 15 degrees outside at the time. Made for easy snow plowing.
I've been using the 3PT lift a good deal the past couple weeks hauling a carry-all with a drum strapped on it for collecting maple tree sap. Works good.... what would I do without that TO?

George

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Jim in OH

03-01-2008 08:00:50




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to Bob (Aust), 02-27-2008 16:06:04  

gshadel said: (quoted from post at 07:13:37 03/01/08) .... That thin "universal" stuff is too thin. I think it is hard to beat the all round protection of a commercial (diesel) oil. I've been running the 20W50 for ~6 months or so and have not seen the first hint of foam prob's....

George


I didn't comment on the foaming issue, but I think it is safe to say that it will not foam in our transmissions if it does not foam in an engine... and of course, to get the cold weather benefit, the multigrade oils just cannot be beat...

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gshadel

03-01-2008 06:13:37




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to gshadel, 02-27-2008 16:06:04  
great discussion on this topic! You guys missed my main point though... it was 13 degrees outside and my TO started right up! (Just kidding)
One other difference I noted was I usually have to hold my clutch peddle down for a couple minutes on those cold start-ups, if I don't my engine wants to stall from trying to churn that thick'ol GL1. Did not have that problem with the 20W50.
I agree with all you guys, EP additives don't belong in a TO. That thin "universal" stuff is too thin. I think it is hard to beat the all round protection of a commercial (diesel) oil. I've been running the 20W50 for ~6 months or so and have not seen the first hint of foam prob's.
I frankly find that GL-1 is getting harder to find, TCS around here is hit or miss finding it on the shelves. My local NAPA usually has to order it for me. How many posts have you guys seen from guys asking "where can I get GL-1?" I think the day may come where GL1 is a "specialty" item... which usually means higher prices. 20W50 can find everywhere.

George

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Jim in OH

02-29-2008 15:04:12




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to Jerry/MT, 02-27-2008 16:06:04  

Lance J. said: (quoted from post at 15:43:00 02/29/08) Crem-

I don't know if universal hydraulic or "tractor" fluids have EP additives in them but they are not the best choice for Ferguson Tractors. The reason is that they simply don't have the viscosity that these old machines require. Case in point: my TO35 was filled with new tractor fluid when I acquired it. The 3 point lift would sink all the way down within a few seconds of pressing the clutch. I was for sure I had an acute problem with the hydraulics, but the problem disappeared when I thoroughly drained it and replaced with GL1 mineral oil. I'm sure that my hydraulics have alot of wear on them, but its nice not to have to fix that right now.


Lance.. That is what I remember also.. If you could find a GL-4 rated oil that was thick enough to suit you.... that would work.. I think if your system is in good shape (pump is in good shape and hydraulic cylinders don't leak), you could get by with the thinner GL-4, particularly in cold climates.. The "old fashioned" GL-1 or a more modern motor oil substitute (my favorite is 15w40) will get you home.. Jim in OH

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Jim in OH

02-29-2008 14:57:15




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to Willy / 30- OD *, 02-27-2008 16:06:04  

Crem said: (quoted from post at 12:30:18 02/29/08) Jim, do you know if the Ford M2C134D fluid or the Universal Tractor Hydraulic Fluids have any EP additives in them?


They have some, but I don't think it is the "bad ones"... Look at the ratings.. I think that fluid is a GL-4... If it has a GL-4 rating, it is okay on the basis of the additives, but for some reason I seem to remember that the GL-4 fluids tend to be available in the thinner weight.. 75w80 etc... Only the GL-1 and the GL-4 protects copper, brass and non-ferrous metals.

Jim in OH

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rich4

02-29-2008 12:08:55




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to gshadel, 02-27-2008 16:06:04  
I agree there is different types of viscosity ratings, but I thought putting a detergent oil in a hydraulic/trans system would make it foam and deem it unusable for hydraulic work. So to use an auto oil might not be a good idea. The Mineral oil had no additives so it works good for the hydraulic system, Hytrans oil also is non detergent so it cannot foam up.



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Jim in OH

02-28-2008 21:17:00




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to supergrumpy, 02-27-2008 16:06:04  

Crem said: (quoted from post at 18:13:15 02/28/08) I would be concerned about not using an oil without some EP additives in it because of the differential gears. Below is an older link which many of you have probably read on this topic. It was a discussion on the Ford N board.
N series oil


EP additives are of course a good thing for high extreme pressure wear, but they also become acidic when exposed to moisture and play havic with the copper bearing metals of the Fergie transmission... If you could keep it bone dry in a well sealed transmission, you could probably get away with it.. but remember... (1) the original oil (GL-1) for this tractor never had (or has) EP additives (2) they last forever without it... and (3) some engine oils (particularly those for diesels) have some low levels of non-corrosive friction reducing additive that GL-1 doesn't have..While I believe the risk of corrosion damage is probably over stated, it is real since I have not seen a Fergie yet that did not develop that milky brown transmission oil, which, of course is water mixed with oil (and rust)..

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Crem

02-29-2008 11:30:18




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to Jim in OH, 02-28-2008 21:17:00  
Jim, do you know if the Ford M2C134D fluid or the Universal Tractor Hydraulic Fluids have any EP additives in them?



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Lance J.

02-29-2008 14:43:00




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to Crem, 02-29-2008 11:30:18  
Crem-
I don't know if universal hydraulic or "tractor" fluids have EP additives in them but they are not the best choice for Ferguson Tractors. The reason is that they simply don't have the viscosity that these old machines require. Case in point: my TO35 was filled with new tractor fluid when I acquired it. The 3 point lift would sink all the way down within a few seconds of pressing the clutch. I was for sure I had an acute problem with the hydraulics, but the problem disappeared when I thoroughly drained it and replaced with GL1 mineral oil. I'm sure that my hydraulics have alot of wear on them, but its nice not to have to fix that right now.

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Jim in OH

02-28-2008 12:16:40




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to gshadel, 02-27-2008 16:06:04  
Good analogy Jeff... It is confusing, but as you said, motor oil will be fine. Here is a chart that I found some time ago.. I think it was posted previously, but here it is again.. This chart is the viscosity at 40 degrees C or about 104 degrees F, and at 100C = 212F.. . (but important point is not the temperatures at which the comparison is made, but that SAE40 and SAE50 motor oils are in the same range as SAE80 and SAE90 Gear Lube

Jim in OH

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Fred T. Hart Jr.

02-27-2008 17:14:14




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to gshadel, 02-27-2008 16:06:04  
Is your tractor a TO-35?

Should it not have M1103 90 wt. mineral oil in hydraulic/transmission system?

I have heard the reason for using mineral oil is it provides the proper lubrication to brass bearings in the transmission. Regular motor oil will not provide the necessary lube for the transmission.

However, if you are not pulling hard, plowing, discing, etc: it may not be a problem. But could cause transmission problems long term.

Would be interesting to hear what other (Ferguson gearheads) have to say about the use of motor oil in Ferguson hyd/trans system.

Just my 2 cents,

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Crem

02-28-2008 17:13:15




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to Fred T. Hart Jr., 02-27-2008 17:14:14  
I would be concerned about not using an oil without some EP additives in it because of the differential gears. Below is an older link which many of you have probably read on this topic. It was a discussion on the Ford N board.



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Jeff-oh

02-28-2008 09:19:09




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to Fred T. Hart Jr., 02-27-2008 17:14:14  
The manual does call out 90wt GL1 mineral oil in summer and 80wt GL1 mineral oil in winter.
There are many discussions in the archives that talk about the differences in the testing methods of engine oil and gear oils. Basicly 40 to 50 wt. engine oil and 90 wt. gear oil is the same viscosity. They are not the same scale. Kinda like 100 deg C. and 212 deg F are the same temperature.

His transmission will be fine. Do a archive search on oils and you have enough to read for months... :)

Jeff

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Jerry/MT

02-27-2008 16:45:48




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to gshadel, 02-27-2008 16:06:04  
I"m glad to hear the results of using engine oil in the trans/hydraulic system, George. I"ll be interested in what you find long term also. When I was in college and working in a steel mill, we used 30wt engine oil in all our hydraulic systems on our specialty mill tractors and it seem to work fine. It seemed to stay clean, too. Never used it on trnsmissions and final drives, though.



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Firemechanic

02-28-2008 08:47:59




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to Jerry/MT, 02-27-2008 16:45:48  
The TO-"s I work on I keep the 80 wt in, and even in our cold Ohio temps, it works just fine.

But I thought I would mention that their is nothing wrong with motor oil in a transmission, as big truck transmissions have been filled with 50 wt motor oil from the factory for decades. The tractor-trailer that you pass on the highway with it"s Fuller 10 speed should have motor oil in it. You never want to put motor oil in any high pressure gear application, like a differential.

Just my thoughts!

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Bendee

02-28-2008 18:44:41




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to Firemechanic, 02-28-2008 08:47:59  
My eaton diff took sae140 and my 13 sp road ranger took sae90.



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Jeff-oh

02-28-2008 09:13:19




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 Re: I'm a believer in reply to Firemechanic, 02-28-2008 08:47:59  
The transmissions/ differentials and hydraulicw on these tractors all use the same oil supply. It is not recomended to use HP oil in them over concerns of corosion from the sulfer in the HP oil. That is why GL-1 oil is recommended and not GL-3 or GL-5 which are the High Pressure gear oil grades.



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