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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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crack between cyl. Z120 motor

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michael in tenn

03-29-2007 13:32:19




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I am in the process of restoring a T020. I found a crack between cylinders and tractor was in semi use cuting pasture field when needed then set up less than a year. I have read the comments about cracks and how to fix them. What puzzles me is there in NO WATER in my oil what so ever is it possible if head gasket is install corectly and done right that the head gasket will fix problem or is mine rare that it does not leak? My motor has sleves in it maybe this is common, maybe this is why it doesent leak. Would like to know if someone has cracked block with no leaks and how is it doing.

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Jim in OH

03-29-2007 14:32:28




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 Re: crack between cyl. Z120 motor in reply to michael in tenn., 03-29-2007 13:32:19  
I'll just repeat what two different machine shops have told me.... The cracks are a systemic common problem that most Z120/Z129 blocks have. The cracks at the top are not of serious concern because the head gasket and the intack sleeve flange will usually provide the sealing without having to repair the cracks. The cracks at the bottom are a different story... they must be sealed in some way, either with sealants, drawing together (as has been described), or actual metal brazing repair (a furnace/oven/welding affair). The bottom cracks are also an issue because they no longer provide the block rigidity that is intended, particularly at the center main bearing... in fact, these lower cracks, after developing, frequently propagate into the center main bearing at which time a block replacement (or more expensive repair) will be necessary.

Jim

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Jerry/MT

03-29-2007 16:13:38




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 Re: crack between cyl. Z120 motor in reply to Jim in OH, 03-29-2007 14:32:28  
Jim, I saw a Case loader engine block repaired with furnace brazing about 6 years ago and as far as I know it's still running. I personally would have scrapped the block. The main webs were cracked through the bearing supports and that wasn't the only damage.)I think the crank broke. But the mechanic rebuilding it in the shop at WSU-Puyallup said he'd done several with damage as bad as this one with excellent success. The university got a lot of surplus equipment from the government and had to repair a lot of it to make it usable. I guess it quite common to have a basket case block repaired.

My TO-30, while far from a basket case, had the usually cracks and it was remanufactured and the same process was used. The furnace actually stress relieves the block and then it all align bored to get everything true and all that machine work included in the repair price.

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Jim in OH

03-29-2007 19:40:20




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 Re: crack between cyl. Z120 motor in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-29-2007 16:13:38  
Jerry, I agree.. and there are going to be more of them... Z129 blocks are becoming very scarce.... I have looked for weeks to find one and I saw two short blocks go for more than $500 on Ebay and they were "as is" from running (but unknown condition) engines.... They would probably still have cracks... And I am of the impression that the repaired blocks are better than the originals... for a couple of reasons that I can think of... (1)stress relieved(as you have mentioned) and (2) the braze is not as brittle as the cast iron.. I actually have two blocks going back together... one will be basically stock and other will be a bit on the wild side... looking for about 50+ Hp... The wild one is in the repaired block..... I am hoping it holds together... Sorry if I offend the Ferguson lovers, but these blocks are miserably marginal in nearly every respect.... three weak mains, particularly the center one... only slivers of metal between the cylinders... no room for any significant stroke or bore.... no strength for compression... enough ranting.... JIm

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Jerry/MT

03-30-2007 15:16:45




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 Re: crack between cyl. Z120 motor in reply to Jim in OH, 03-29-2007 19:40:20  
I think that they are only a problem if the get overheated. Some folks have had them from original purchase and they haven't cracked. But for a working machine to be that sensitive to overheating is just plain poor design practice. Some ol' boy working in the woods punches a small hole in the radiator and the water trickles out un-noticed and the engine has a cracked block and needs a major repair. Poor design.

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Jim in OH

03-30-2007 15:35:10




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 Re: crack between cyl. Z120 motor in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-30-2007 15:16:45  
I agree at least for the top cracks.. as the head and top of the block are the affected areas...however, there is almost no heating at the bottom of the water jacket and that also is flooded until the last drop of water is gone. The pistons don't even go that low so there is not much overheating potential for the bottom... I think that the bottom end will develop cracks without abuse, but don't have any way to prove it toher than the fact that I have fine line developing cracks at the bottom that are not leaking yet and there are none at the top....

Jim

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Randyr

03-29-2007 21:04:57




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 Re: crack between cyl. Z120 motor in reply to Jim in OH, 03-29-2007 19:40:20  
Hi Jim, What are you doing with your wild engine to get 50 horsepower?
I like the sound of that.
And are the Z134 engines as prone to cracking?



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Jim in OH

03-30-2007 11:01:29




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 Re: crack between cyl. Z120 motor in reply to Randyr, 03-29-2007 21:04:57  
Bore, stroke, compression, more rpm and better breathing... I'll share more as it develops.. I don't expect it to live a long life... but it is a fun project... and I do think that the 134 casting is better... mostly on my observation that you don't here the same complaints... Almost all of the internals are the same as the Z129, just a different casting... I would use a 134 block, but the engine mounting is different and can't be mounted in a Z129 without an adapter plate and either clutch/flywheel work or a longer input shaft.. and it would no longer look stock.....

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mike a. tenn.

03-29-2007 14:06:54




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 Re: crack between cyl. Z120 motor in reply to michael in tenn., 03-29-2007 13:32:19  
michael...all Z120 engines have sleeves, and...yes, it's rare that one with a cracked block doesn't leak, unless it is "pinned" already. does it have long "bolts" going thru the block from side to side between the sleeves? if so you're lucky in that it's already been repaired.



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michael in tenn.

03-29-2007 14:38:50




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 Re: crack between cyl. Z120 motor in reply to mike a. tenn., 03-29-2007 14:06:54  
no its doesent have bolts through it and maybe its just at the top and the gasket is sealing it. dont know weither to fix it or let it be since it dont leak



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Jim in OH

03-29-2007 17:55:47




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 Re: crack between cyl. Z120 motor in reply to michael in tenn., 03-29-2007 14:38:50  
Michael.. Just to repeat what I was told.. you don't have to repair the top if it seals okay... the bottom, you must do something... I might add that you are talking several hundred dollars to properly braze it up... grind 99% through cracks... heat up the block to about 600F I think.. braze while hot... let soak at temperature overnight.... slow quiet air cool... align (or common term "line") bore for crank and cam... redeck... touchup sleeve bores as necessary.... install cam bearings (since the cam bores are now bigger).... as you can see... not a small task...Jim

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