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electronic Ignition on a 6 volt

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Mark from the f

03-20-2007 13:58:14

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Just curious after reading the posts below about switching from pos. to neg ground.
I was considering (I do a lot of considering, then the wallet does some re-considering Ha Ha)
trying an electronic ignition on my 6 volt POSITIVE ground 35--do they make a special module for 6 volt positive ground????? Or only for a 6 volt switched to negitive ground??
I'm glad this is being discussed.
Would a 6 volt system switched to neg. ground be ANYMORE sensitive than they already are at pos. ground?
Many thanks, Mark

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mark from the fort

03-22-2007 11:39:10

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Wow, that was fun. in reply to Mark from the fort, 03-20-2007 13:58:14

Thanks to all for the spirited debate.....heck, I was just curious..... ...Ha Ha Ha
Thanks guys, Mark

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tokruys

03-21-2007 04:49:02

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Re: electronic Ignition on a 6 volt in reply to Mark from the fort, 03-20-2007 13:58:14

To answer your question on the availability of the 6V positive ground electronic ignition, I purchased on for my TO20 from this website.

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Mark from the fort

03-20-2007 19:34:02

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Re: Thanks Gentlemen in reply to Mark from the fort, 03-20-2007 13:58:14

Thanks, Jerry.
Let me ask you this, why were systems switched to negative grounds when they started using 12 volts?
So if wired correctly, a system could be wired 12 volt positive ground or 6 volt negative ground and they would both work as well as their counterparts? Just Curious, I wish I understood electricity better and could figure these questions out myself.
Does the wiring effect starter rotation?
Thanks for your time and intelligence, Curious George a.k.a. Mark

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Jerry/MT

03-20-2007 22:17:51

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Re: Thanks Gentlemen in reply to Mark from the fort, 03-20-2007 19:34:02

Contrary to my friend's (Jim in OH) statement, I have absolutely no idea why the polarity was switched from 6V Positive to 12 V negative. As Jim points out, some cars had 12V positive grounds. I believe that with a generator, it really doesn't make any difference what the polarity is as long as you polarize the system and you make sure that the coil has the proper ground polarity.

With alternators, there is something about the solid state electronics that requires a negative ground and I am all ready out of my depth on this subject with that statement. My '68 charger had an alternator with a elctromechanical voltage regulator so I'm thinking it may have something to do with the rectifiers that make the AC output into DC. I have all ready said too much on this subject and I'm sure a real expert will step forward and correct me if I'm in error.

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Dell (WA)

03-21-2007 14:20:28

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Re: Thanks Gentlemen in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-20-2007 22:17:51

Jerry..... ..the real reason for change from 6-volt positive or negative ground to 12-volt NEGATIVE GROUND is TRANSISTOR RADIOS. The NPN Germanium Audio POWER Transistor needed HEAT-SINK to keep from melting its little semi-conductor gutts. The radio chassis was "obvious" source for heat-sink ...but... it had to be NEGATIVE VOLTS to make the transistor work. This was 1956 transistor radio technology before "fins". Then came along Chrysler in 1960 with alternators whose solid-state diodes also needed "heat-sink" and the case of the diode became friction-fit to alternator body for heatsink. Still had mechanical voltage regulators. Then the Delco 10-SI came along 1966? with built-in solid-state voltage regulator and the rest is history as they say..... ....Dell, the NON-historian who built his first transistor radio in 1954 from scratch

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Jerry/MT

03-21-2007 16:35:17

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Re: Thanks Gentlemen in reply to Dell (WA), 03-21-2007 14:20:28

Thanks, Dell. One ex-Boeing guy bails out another! I knew a real expert would provide the correct answer.

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Jim in OH

03-21-2007 15:25:46

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Re: Thanks Gentlemen in reply to Dell (WA), 03-21-2007 14:20:28

Dell.. I don't usually dissagree with your answers, but I can't let this one go by unchallanged... Positive ground was used well before transistor radios were even invented.... It might have been convenient (that there was positive ground) for the transistors but it couldn't be the motivation... I'll stick with corrosion.. Jim

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uh . . . Dell (WA)

03-21-2007 21:24:13

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Re: Thanks Gentlemen in reply to Jim in OH, 03-21-2007 15:25:46

Jim..... ..read my answer again. 1956 Ford introduced TRANSISTOR RADIOS and 12-volt NEGATIVE GROUND to run the transistor AUDIO POWER amplifier. I was there, were you?

Yes, positive ground has certain "technical advantages", its called electrolysis control and don't forget the infamous "Edison Effect" which made vacuum tubes amplify and yer TV screen work..... ....respectfully, Dell, 50yrs Electronics Engineer

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Jim in OH

03-22-2007 06:12:58

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Re: Thanks Gentlemen in reply to uh . . . Dell (WA), 03-21-2007 21:24:13

Sorry, my bad... I did completely misread your answer (even with your emphasis added)... somehow I switched it around and I read that to mean positive ground was for the benefit of transistors, not that negative ground was for transistors.....

and I was almost there (south Detroit/Trenton with Detroit Edison) as a test engineer.. but still wet behind the ears... not designing cars, (but driving a '56 crown-vic, if that counts..) ...and now, still working as Mechanical Engineer.... (and still less than your 50 years) ..... Thanks for setting me straight... I DO enjoy reading your posts!! JIm

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mike a. tenn.

03-21-2007 15:31:04

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Re: Thanks Gentlemen in reply to Jim in OH, 03-21-2007 15:25:46

uh oh...a clash of the titans! a bone of contention between the super experts! this should be very educational, but keep it nice guys.

-mike

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Jim in OH

03-21-2007 15:47:57

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Re: Thanks Gentlemen in reply to mike a. tenn., 03-21-2007 15:31:04

Probably not... knowing Dell (a little bit, 'cause I read most of his posts), he just might have been pullin' Jerry's leg and is now LOL that he sucked someone (me)in... :-) Jim

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Bob (Aust)

03-21-2007 02:40:51

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Re: Thanks Gentlemen in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-20-2007 22:17:51

"With alternators, there is something about the solid state electronics that requires a negative ground and I am all ready out of my depth on this subject with that statement."

Alternators generate alternating current (AC) and have diode rectifiers, usually built in, that converts the alternating current they generate, into direct current (DC) required to charge the battery.

Diodes are a one way switch or gate, if you like. Reverse polarity and there is no electrical flow, usually only smoke and a burning smell!

Generators generate DC current and don't require diodes to rectify the current before it gets to the battery. They can be either negative or positive polarity, they don't really care so long as the system polarity is reset!

Alternators (like most AC equipment) are far more efficient than generators, but need to turn at higher speed, hence the smaller belt pulley.

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Jim in OH

03-20-2007 20:55:58

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Re: Thanks Gentlemen in reply to Mark from the fort, 03-20-2007 19:34:02

I know you addressed this to Jerry.. but just a quick comment.... Positive ground systems are not unique to 6 volt systems... for example, some old Jaguars had positive ground 12 volt sytems... The reason for the positive ground had more to do with corrosion issues... which I presume turned out to be less important than developing a common standard... and concerning the rotation, it depends on how the motor is constructed.. I think I have heard Jerry explain it better than this, so I hope he still adds his thoughts, but basically, the current is reversed in BOTH the stator and armature so the net forces end up in the same direction regardless of polarity.. JIm

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Jerry/MT

03-20-2007 16:35:31

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Re: electronic Ignition on a 6 volt in reply to Mark from the fort, 03-20-2007 13:58:14

The only thing in the ignition system that is sensitive to battery polarity is the coil. The wire from the coil to the distributor must have the same polarity as the ground. If it doesn't the spark energy is reduced by approximately one half.If the polarity is incorrect, the spark jumps from the ground to the elctrode on the plug and it's supposed to jump from the electrode to the ground.

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John (UK)

03-20-2007 14:22:36

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Re: electronic Ignition on a 6 volt in reply to Mark from the fort, 03-20-2007 13:58:14

I have emailed some information to you Mark...John

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