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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum

piston size

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david grasmick

02-16-2007 08:01:36

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I have one piston which appears to have cracks in it. I measured it and it measures at 3"1/4. When looking through the parts list I only see a 3"5/16 replacement. Will I have to replace all pistons and sleeves? Also have a leak in the seals coming out of the steering box. What is the part # or name for these seals?

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Kenny in OK

02-16-2007 12:37:43

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Re: piston size in reply to david grasmick, 02-16-2007 08:01:36

Chuck 130 is right on they are about $8 dollars each

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Mike Mohrhauser

02-16-2007 11:08:52

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Re: piston size in reply to david grasmick, 02-16-2007 08:01:36

David,
What is your tractor model? I may have a good standard sized piston and sleeve that I took out of a MF-35 for the same reason. I just couldn't throw away the good pistons and sleeves.If it's the same size as you have it would be cheaper to buy the single piston. If you are doing a complete engine rebuild you might want to go with the over sized pistons anyway.

Mike M.

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Jim in OH

02-16-2007 11:20:11

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Re: piston size in reply to Mike Mohrhauser, 02-16-2007 11:08:52

The OD of Z134 sleeve is the same as a Z129 but is different (bigger) that a Z120, and Z134 piston was 3 5/16. Std for TO-20 was, as already indicated, 3 3/16 but it may have been changed to 3 1/4.... Jim

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Jim in OH

02-16-2007 10:56:00

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Re: piston size in reply to david grasmick, 02-16-2007 08:01:36

Hi David... The short answers

When looking through the parts list I only see a 3"5/16 replacement. As far as I know, the 3 1/4 Fergie piston has been discontinued. Single pistons and sleeve are also hard to find, although I think Sparex will supply them in singles (3 5/16)

Will I have to replace all pistons and sleeves? No, you can do one (3 5/16 piston and sleeve)without doing the rest. (I know I'll get flack for this, but it was common practice in the 50s to sometimes have different bores in a single engine, even by reputable engine rebuilders. It is not ideal, and not done anymore as far as I know, but the displacement difference is small) The displacement difference for 3.25 to 3.3125 is less than 4%... the compression ratio would go from 6.2 to 6.4 the static compression would be about 6 psi more (about 5%) in that cylinder. Having said that, why would you not want to do all four. After getting the head and the pan off, one piston and sleeve out, why not three more.

Also, if you want to just stuff a working piston back in the hole (not the way I would do it), you can buy replacement pistons of the same bore, appropriate "compression height" (sometimes called "compression distance") and use it or get a used one from someone (maybe here)... But even then, it would probably have to have some reconditioning... If you want more info.... ask.. JIm

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mike a. tenn.

02-16-2007 10:35:55

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Re: piston size in reply to david grasmick, 02-16-2007 08:01:36

hey david...as long as you have the head pulled and, i assume the pan dropped, and knowing you already have one bad piston...if i was you i'd get a "set" (kit) of sleeves and pistons ordered and replace them all. you end up with slightly oversized pistons (a little more power) and the satisfaction of knowing you have good sleeves pistons and rings. if you get the head done now also, you practically have a complete overhaul done on it. i did it to my to-20, it wasn't all that bad and could have been alot easier if i'd have known about this forum then. the toughest part of the whole job is pulling the old sleeves out, and that can be made a whole lot easier by using a simple home made sleeve puller that i'm sure, if you asked real nice, someone would post you a picture of...tho i hate speaking for anyone. i agree...you're lucky to find this problem before it caused some real headaches! good luck.

-mike

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Duner Wi

02-16-2007 10:00:31

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Re: piston size in reply to david grasmick, 02-16-2007 08:01:36

3 3/16 is std. 3 1/4 and 3 5/16 are oversize. Don't see any 3 1/4 sleeve sets in my catalog but that does not mean some one does not have them. If it were my tractor I would be thankful I caught the cracked piston before it did mischief to the head or block and replace all pistons.

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chuck130

02-16-2007 08:09:30

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Re: piston size in reply to david grasmick, 02-16-2007 08:01:36

Steering arm seal is CR13027, available at any bearing/seal supply store.

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david grasmick

02-16-2007 13:34:02

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Re: piston size in reply to chuck130, 02-16-2007 08:09:30

As far as the engine I have had some touble identifying it. The block says Z129 however the tractor is a TO20. I just received the Ferguson Dealer Shop Manual and it states that the TO30 had a 31/4 piston which is what I measured. Would the suggestion of anyone be to order the TO30 sleeves and pistons or the TO20? It looks like I will be replacing all 4 due to the great advice I have received. This is my first project so I appreciate any and all advice.

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Jim in OH

02-16-2007 13:58:04

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Re: piston size in reply to david grasmick, 02-16-2007 13:34:02

It is a little more complicated than that... the stroke of the TO-20 was 3.75" compared to the TO-30 which was 3.875" so it matters a little bit what crank you have in this engine. If it has the Z129/Z134 crank, then get the Z129 kit for sure. If it has the Z120 crank in the Z129 block, using the Z129 kit will physically fit and work, but the pistons will be about 1/16 of an inch below the deck. The compression height of the pistons are different... this will lower the compression of the engine... but after doing a calculation.. I can see that the increased bore and decreased compression height are almost exactly compensating... so the answer is.. the tO 30 kit should work even if you have the Z120 Crank... Jim

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mike a. tenn.

02-16-2007 14:11:11

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Re: piston size in reply to Jim in OH, 02-16-2007 13:58:04

jim...another question. is the crank diameter at the rod bearings the same in both the z120 and z129 cranks? in other words...if he has the z120 crank and orders out the sleeve/piston kit for a z129, are the connecting rods and bearings in the kit going to fit that crank? just double checking...i don't know.

-mike

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Jim in OH

02-16-2007 17:44:17

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Re: piston size in reply to mike a. tenn., 02-16-2007 14:11:11

I am sure there is a casting number... I'll look when I get to the barn (my TO-30 is in a million pieces). With the crank in and the head off, the best way would be to measure the stroke... That is the difference between the top and bottom most positions.. It would be 3 3/4 for the Z120 and 3 7/8 for the Z129...and yes, the rod and main journals are sized exactly the same (keep in mind they might be reground off-standard)... and the rods and piston pins are identical too.. infact the rods have a Z120 casting number and were used all the way through the Z134 (and I think the Z145 too).... JIm

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mike a. tenn.

02-16-2007 18:08:51

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Re: piston size in reply to Jim in OH, 02-16-2007 17:44:17

jim...so if you had david's set-up, taking all this info. into account, and you wanted to change out all the sleeves and pistons, would you order the kit for the Z129? i think he might be waiting for a few confirmations so that he can order his parts.

thanks again, mike

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mike a. tenn.

02-16-2007 14:03:04

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Re: piston size in reply to Jim in OH, 02-16-2007 13:58:04

hey jim...is there a way to tell which crank is in it? i'm just being curious.

thanks, mike

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John (TR)

02-16-2007 18:38:18

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Re: piston size in reply to mike a. tenn., 02-16-2007 14:03:04

ID the crank by the part number cast on it. The 20 I took apart had a number on it but I did not write it doen.

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mike a. tenn.

02-16-2007 13:41:19

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Re: piston size in reply to david grasmick, 02-16-2007 13:34:02

hey david...i'm pretty sure we all agreed that you have an engine from a to-30 (Z129), in your to-20, so that's the pistons and sleeves "I" would order for if it was me. you might wanna hold off and see if some of the others agree...but that's my vote.

-mike

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david grasmick

02-16-2007 15:11:07

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Re: piston size in reply to mike a. tenn., 02-16-2007 13:41:19

I checked the block and it is drilled for an external oil filter along with the generator boss's which are also drilled. There is no external filter on this tractor there is a plate bolted covering the holes. It appears the replacement blks for the TO 20 bearing the Z129 casting # were not drilled for the generator mount or the external oil filter. Anybody have more info on this?

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mike a. tenn.

02-16-2007 15:25:18

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Re: piston size in reply to david grasmick, 02-16-2007 15:11:07

david...that is exactly how jeff (oh) explained it to me, and if he said it it's probably true. i'd be willing to bet you have a z129 engine taken from a to-30 tractor, and put in your to-20. that would lead me to think it also has the z-129 crank. let's see what everyone else has to say...

-mike

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HillsOfTn

02-17-2007 05:11:37

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Re: piston size in reply to mike a. tenn., 02-16-2007 15:25:18

Hey Mike and John (TR)

The crank that John removed from his To20 has a casting number of: Z120C500. The casting number is large enough that David should have no trouble reading it on his crank. Hope this helps him.

Larry

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mike a. tenn.

02-17-2007 05:35:29

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Re: piston size in reply to HillsOfTn, 02-17-2007 05:11:37

ya larry...if david can check the casting numbers on his engine, and they have a Z129--- number, that would just about confirm it, and he could order a piston kit for a Z129 engine.

after re-reading thru what jim-oh said, if i understand him right, it sounds like the sleeves and pistons for the Z129, would work even if david had a Z120 crank in his block...so that's what i'd be ordering.

david...i hope you will tell us what you find when you look at your crank, and keep us informed on how your rebuild goes.

-mike

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david grasmick

02-17-2007 12:03:00

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Re: piston size in reply to mike a. tenn., 02-17-2007 05:35:29

I'll keep you posted on the rebuild and any parts # or whatever we find. I'm sure I'll have alot more inquiries. If anyone knows where I could get an external filter setup I would greatly appreciate the info. Thanks!

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