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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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horsepower

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Dennis Daly

09-29-2006 00:58:16




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Could anyone explain the diffence between,
1. horsepower
2. PTO horsepower
3. drawbar horsepower
I am planning on getting a newer tractor. I currently have a 1953 Ferguson TO 30 and I want to make sure that the implements that I already have will be compatable with whatever tractor I decide to buy.
Thanks for any help anyone can give me.

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Jerry/MT

09-29-2006 10:07:14




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 Re: horsepower in reply to Dennis Daly, 09-29-2006 00:58:16  
brake horsepower-power measured at the engine output shaft( there are various nuances for brakehorspower regarding whether or not the accesories are being driven but we don't need to get into that here.)

PTO horsepower - measured at the PTO shaft= brake horspower x (1- eta mechanical) where, eta mechanical is the mechanical efficiency of the gear train and driveline between the engine output shaft and the PTO output shaft.

Drawbar horsepower is the power supplied to the rear wheels and is a function of weight and ballast, tire pressure, soil conditions, weight distribution, rpm, etc, etc and is an indicator of the number plow bottoms a tractor can pull.

The best reference horsepower, in my opinion, is PTO horsepower. Brake horsepower is an interesting number from the engine output standpoint and if a subcontractor supplies and engine for a vehicle, it's important to the vehicle designer. But when you're looking at comparing existing tractors, the PTO horsepower is the best reference(in my opinion). Drawbar horsepower is usefull but may not reflect the conditions that you are operating in, and if you have autility tractor and don't do much plowing, it's not very useful.
With regard to your implements, if thy are Cat 1, then get a tractor with a Cat 1 hitch.
Hope this helps you.

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Jim in OH

09-29-2006 11:52:00




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 Re: horsepower in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-29-2006 10:07:14  
Sorry to repeat it, but pilot error.. got hooked to wrong post.. Jim

Drawbar horsepower is the power supplied to the rear wheels ground through the drawbar and is a function of weight and ballast, tire pressure, soil conditions, weight distribution, rpm, etc, etc and is an indicator of the number plow bottoms a tractor can pull.

You know what you are talking about, but more precisely, drawbar horsepower is the product of the horizontal pull at the drawbar times the velocity across the field (not actually to the rear wheels). In fact, if you hook a Fergie to a tree and sit there with the wheels spinning, drawbar horsepower would be zero (no forward motion) but the power to the rear wheels could be 25 Hp.

Jim

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Jerry/MT

09-29-2006 20:41:27




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 Re: horsepower in reply to Jim in OH, 09-29-2006 11:52:00  
Since the force reaction takes place at the driving wheels/ground interface, I'll stand by my definition. The pull on the drawbar is equal and opposite to the driving wheel force.



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Jim in OH

09-30-2006 07:54:32




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 Re: horsepower in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-29-2006 20:41:27  
Your definition of drawbar horsepower is not correct... Tractor tests (e.g. Nebraska) don't define it that way and measure it exactly as I described (drawbar force times actual velocity)... and what you describe is not equal or another way of saying the same thing. If you (or anyone else)want to continue this discussion, lets take it "offline", I stand by what I said.. Email is open. Jim



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Jerry/MT

10-01-2006 12:23:31




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 Re: horsepower in reply to Jim in OH, 09-30-2006 07:54:32  
Sent you an email on September 30th. There are other ways to measure the same power but the method used in the Nebraska Test is probably the easiest.



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Jerry/MT

09-29-2006 20:50:07




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 Re: horsepower in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-29-2006 20:41:27  
Further more the engine would not be at max power. The power to the rear wheels would be zero if you had all slip. The engine power output would be that necessary to overcome the drive train friction plus spin the tires, way less then 25 hp even though you were at rated rpm.



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Fergie fan

09-29-2006 08:04:50




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 Re: horsepower in reply to Dennis Daly, 09-29-2006 00:58:16  
There is a wider variation now than in the old days, when engines turned slower and lasted a whole lot longer. PTO speed should be at the "sweet spot" of any engine and indicates hp at the end of shaft, old timers called this belt horse power. Engine horsepower is flywheel and sometimes without accesories as in alt or any other belt driven add ons. Drawbar Hp is what you can exxpect at the wheels, but depends upon your weights, just watch some of those tractor pullers working their way up through the classes by adding more iron. Usable DB horsepower shouldn't mean flat out rpm either, whaever you're drivin u want it to last a while.
My old 9n runs sweet at around 1500 rpm, my new models can hit 3 grand on flat out throttle.

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Jim in OH

09-29-2006 11:49:08




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 Re: horsepower in reply to Fergie fan, 09-29-2006 08:04:50  
Post below was souposed to be hooked to Jerry



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Jim in OH

09-29-2006 11:47:47




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 Re: horsepower in reply to Fergie fan, 09-29-2006 08:04:50  
Drawbar horsepower is the power supplied to the rear wheels ground through the drawbar and is a function of weight and ballast, tire pressure, soil conditions, weight distribution, rpm, etc, etc and is an indicator of the number plow bottoms a tractor can pull.

You know what you are talking about, but more precisely, drawbar horsepower is the product of the horizontal pull at the drawbar times the velocity across the field (not actually to the rear wheels). In fact, if you hook a Fergie to a tree and sit there with the wheels spinning, drawbar horsepower would be zero (no forward motion) but the power to the rear wheels could be 25 Hp.

Jim

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jmixigo

09-29-2006 06:55:46




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 Re: horsepower in reply to Dennis Daly, 09-29-2006 00:58:16  
As best as I kin esplain it:
Horse power is how much grunt the engine makes at it's maximum power level. This is measured at the flywheel.
PTO horse power is how much engine power you got left after alla the gears get through with it at 540 PTO rpm.
Draw bar horse power is derived from a formula that came from the University of Nebraska Tractor Test laboratory. They measure how hard the tractor actually pulls against a load and quantify that into a horse power number that tells you how much the unit can put to the ground.
PTO hp has long been the "American standard" measure of a tractor. Many of the newer tractors though can be a pain as far as finding out about PTO hp cause the marketing dept. just wants you to know the biggest number.
Some of the "compact's" engines turn near a thousand rpm over PTO speed and that's where they take the hp reading, then you hook up a brush cutter an find yoself coming up short at 540 PTO speed.
All a feller can do is get informed and try to shop wisely.

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GENE STEVENS

09-29-2006 04:47:40




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 Re: horsepower in reply to Dennis Daly, 09-29-2006 00:58:16  
Your TO 30 is a Cat I tractor. If you stay with a Cat I most if not all should be compatatable. I can not tell you the difference between PTO, drawbar and horsepower. Gene



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