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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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TO20 Won't Start

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Don in VA

09-02-2006 08:34:48




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I have changed plugs, points, condenser, rotor, distributor cap, and checked all the wiring, which looks fine. I did a 12-volt conversion a few months ago and it ran great and started instantly since then until now. Battery is strong, starter turns fast, but it won't fire. Gas is flowing fine to the carburetor. I even tried a new ignition switch and also tried bypassing the switch. A ballast resister came with the conversion kit and I put it between the ignition switch and the coil. Do those things ever go bad? I have a feeling that no current is reaching the coil. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

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Don in VA

09-02-2006 13:29:01




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Don in VA, 09-02-2006 08:34:48  
I checked the wiring against the diagram and it looks right. I checked the carb as Jerry/MT suggested and got more of a trickle - not a heavy flow. Gas came out the drain hole but it seemed less than the amount that came through the gas line when I disconnected it and observed the volume. Jerry, can you tell me how to check the "secret filter"? It was a secret to me until today. Thanks.



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Jerry/MT

09-02-2006 18:21:00




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Don in VA, 09-02-2006 13:29:01  
The "secret filter" is in the end of the fuel line at the carb in the brass elbow. Remobe the fuel line then remove the elbow. It has a screen on it and you see right away if it's clogged.



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Don in VA

09-02-2006 11:53:57




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Don in VA, 09-02-2006 08:34:48  
Thanks to both of you. I get no spark from the coil-to-distributor wire, no spark fom the resister-to-coil wire, and no spark from the switch-to-resister wire. I don't have a gauge so I can't check that way. I replaced the alternator-to-switch wire, but it didn't help. I think no current is coming out of the alternator.

I tried grounding the battery to the engine, the points are properly gapped, and I did not loosten the distributor when I changed the points, to answer some of your questions. Gas flow is good.

Any additional suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks again.

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Jerry/MT

09-02-2006 18:37:06




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Don in VA, 09-02-2006 11:53:57  
Don you seem to have two problems: no spark and inadequate fuel. When you checked the spark did you use the high tension lead from the coil held about 1/8 of an inch from a good ground and have the key switch on and try a start? If you did then it sounds like you have a break somewhere in the primary circuit.Hence you have no spark. Trace the primary circuit wiring back to the battery to find out why you have no current in that circuit. Dirty/corroded connections, broken wire, damaged resistor, bad key switch etc. When you talk about sparks at the switch to resistor wire, you have to be sure that the points are closed when you try this other wise the primary system is open circuit and ther is no current flow.You should however see a spark if you just ground the wireand it has battery voltage ( or if it's down stream of the resistor, it'll have around 5.5 volts).
I don't recommend you go shorting wire to check for sparks to indicate voltage. For less than $10 you can get an analog volt/ohm meter to make these rudimentary checks. It's a good investment for troubeleshooting. You can jumper around the key switch to check that and also around the resistor to check that.

Get back to us with the results.

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Don in VA

09-03-2006 11:38:18




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-02-2006 18:37:06  
I got a volt meter($5.88 at Sears!)and found no voltage anywhere on the line that starts at the P1 alternator terminal, goes to the key switch, then through the ballast resister to the coil and distributor. I made sure the points were closed as you suggested. The line from the alternator batt terminal to the other key switch terminal, ammeter, solonoid and starter has voltage all the way to the starter, which I assume is why the starter turns just fine. I see no visible problems with the dead line, all the wiring is new from the 12-volt conversion I did a few months ago, and I replaced most of it again in the last few days trying to find this problem. Thanks for the help so far - any additional ideas would be appreciated.

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Jerry/MT

09-03-2006 17:35:39




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Don in VA, 09-03-2006 11:38:18  
Don, I think there is a real screw up in your wiring. I have a 12 V alternator but I believe my power to the key switch comes up from the battery side of the starter switch (on the bell housing)to one side of the the key switch and the other side of the key switch goes to the primary ignition circuit. The basic circuit described verbally goes like this: Battery positive to one side of the key switch, the other side of the key switch goes to one side of the resistor, the other side of the resistor connects to the battery side of the coil(+); the (-) of the coil connects to the distributor connection.
Is there a part of your ignition circuit that you can trace back to the battery? If you can't then you are not hooked up properly.(I'm not familiar with the P1 connection you are referring to but it is obvious it is not the right circuit to hook the primary ignition circuit to.I think P1 has something to do wirth energizing the alternator field.) The alternator output has to get to the battery also. You should be able to start and run without any charging system at all (at least for awhile). You say the battery side alternator connection runs to the other side of the key switch. I take it the primary ignition circuit connection is then located on the other side of the key switch from the battery terminal so that you can cut the ignition circuit off with the key switch. Have you tested the key switch with your volt meter to see that you have battery voltage to the other side of the key switch when you turn it on? Bad key switches are not unheard of.
Take a look in the Research and Info Section to the left re: wiring diagrams for alternator equipped tractors, or try www.fergusonenthusiasts.com. Don't get frustrated. You are not the first guy to have problems with an alternator conversion.
Hope this helps you. Please let us know what you find.

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Don in VA

09-04-2006 14:34:17




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-03-2006 17:35:39  
Jerry - I have around 10 volts (can't read the analog scale all that precisely) on both the incoming and the outgoing wire on the ballast resister (between the ignition switch and the coil), and the same at the coil. The resister does not reduce the voltage at all. I hope I am using the gauge correctly - on the coil I put the positive (red) lead onto the positive terminal of the coil and the negative grounded to the engine. So could this be my problem - too much voltage fries the points, hence it won't start? Thanks for all your help so far.

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Jerry/MT

09-04-2006 20:23:56




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Don in VA, 09-04-2006 14:34:17  
Don that"s the correct way to use the volt meter to determine the voltage at a point in the circuit. If the points are not closed when you measured on both sides of the resistor, then you"d get the same voltage on each side since there is no current through the resistor. The circuit is open when the points aren"t closed. Were the points closed? If not repeat the measurements with the points closed.

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Don in VA

09-05-2006 16:00:17




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-04-2006 20:23:56  
Jerry, thanks for sticking with me on this. I Made absolutely certain that the points were closed, then repeated the volt meter routine. Same result: same voltage at the coil and both ends of the resistor. So I am concluding that the resistor is not doing its job and the excess voltage at the coil and distributor is the problem. If that is the case, I need a new resistor that works and maybe a new coil, points and condenser. Does that sound right?

By the way, the gauge is really cool - I am glad I got it. Now that I know how to work it I can see that that I have current every place I am supposed to have it and I have too much on the coil side of the resistor. This has been a good learning experience. Now if I could only hear the beautiful sound of a fired-up engine...

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Jerry/MT

09-05-2006 20:30:10




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Don in VA, 09-05-2006 16:00:17  
Yep I'd agree with you that soemthing is wrong with the resistor. I'm a bit puzzled as to why the tractor won't start though. Usually it'll start and run until the points burn or the coil fails by overheating. Check the voltage across the coil (points closed)and see what you have. You should have less than what you have on the resitor side of the coil if the coil has continuity. You might also think about getting a real 12V coil(NAPA part # IC-14SB ~$14) then you don't have to wory about the resistor.
There is a lot to be said for doing a careful systematic set of diagnostics rather than sarting to change parts willy nilly. You learn a lot about how the system is supposed to work so that when the next problem comes up you can handle it with more confidence.Having the right tools help also. By the way the volt meter doesn't tell you directly that you have cxurrent. It's like a pressure gauge. It just measures the potential for current. (A pressure gauge will measure the pressure whether there is flow in pipe or not.) You'd need an ammeter to measure the current.
Hang in there we'll get this thing goin yet! You probably need to start a new thread though. This is getting pretty long. Just holler for me!

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John (UK)

09-02-2006 11:59:42




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Don in VA, 09-02-2006 11:53:57  
It should still get power from the battery even if the Alternator isn't working. Check your wiring how it is laid out with your diagram. You should still have power engine running or not.



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Jerry/MT

09-02-2006 10:47:59




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Don in VA, 09-02-2006 08:34:48  
Pull the center terminal out of the distributor, hold it near a good ground, turn on the key, and try a start. You should have a fat bluish spark. If the spark is yellowish, orangey, or non-existent, there is a problem. When you converted to 12V did you keep your 6 V coil?. If you did, then you need the resistor in series(between the ignition switch and the coil) with the coil and you should read about 5.5 volts on the battery side of the coil terminal after the resistor with the points closed and the key on.If you have 12V, then either the points are not closed, have a high resistance, or the coil is shorted.
If you have no volts,check the wiring between the key switch and the coil including your resistor(yes new resistors can go bad.). Also check to see that there is 12V across the key switch when it's in the "ON" position.
You changed the points. Did you gap them to 0.022"? What about the timing? Did you remove or loosen the distributor to put in the points? If so, did you retime it? Are the plugs wet from fuel when you try a start? If they aren't, check gas flow to the carb by opening the bowl drain plug at the bottom of the carb after turning on the fuel valve at the tank and holding a suitable container under it for a minute. The $3/gallon gas should gush out like a cow peein' on a flat rock. If it doesn't check the "secret filter" in the carb fuel elbow and work your way back to the fuel valve. If you have fuel to the carb but a dribble from the bowl drain, your float valve could be clogged or your float could be hung up. rap the side of the carb with a wooden block and see if that starts the fuel going. if it doen't then you'll have to pull the carb for further checks.Do all these checks systematically, one at a time, and write down what you found so you can analyze the results.
Try these checks and get back if you still haven't found the problem.

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John (UK)

09-02-2006 09:56:27




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 Re: TO20 Won't Start in reply to Don in VA, 09-02-2006 08:34:48  
Have you checked for a spark? that will soon tell you if there is anything wrong with your ignition
But you need a good healthy blue spark. Do the plugs get wet when you try to start it, that will mean there is no spark.Take the lead from the switch off the coil and if you have no meter to test it, just rub it lightly against the block, with the switch turned on,you will then see it spark if there is a current flow, no spark no current. If no current, then try dropping the resistor out and trying to see if there is current at the switch side of the resistor, that will tell you if the resistor is duff. When you converted to 12v did you attach the ground lead to the cylinder block rather than the dash panel where it was originally as it will be all rusted up by now and will not transfer current between the individual parts of the dash panel.

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