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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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TO-20 Sputtering

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MattinRaleigh

10-05-2005 15:43:41




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Hello all, thanks in advance for all your help. My TO-20 started sputtering over the weekend after dragging a drag mat for about 2 hrs. Since then I can make it about 200 ft, sometimes alot more-sometimes less at different throttle levels, different gears and different terrain before the problem reappears. The fuel flow has been verified, I can unscrew the carb drain plug while it is sputtering and gas will pour out until I stop it. The flow is also good to the carb elbow inlet and the screen is clean. It will run forever with no problem in nuetral at different throttle levels. I have tweaked the carb, but there has been no change in the sputtering. The charging system has been verified with around 12Vdc at idle and around 14Vdc at half throttle and greater.
I have somewhat eliminated a loose electrical connection because the sputtering will occur crawling in 1st gear and sometimes not occur flying over bumps in 4th.
When the sputtering does start, slightly pulling the choke sometimes helps and then the issue is gone for another couple hundred feet.

Any suggestions, thanks for your help

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Bob Weeks

10-16-2005 13:16:42




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to MattinRaleigh, 10-05-2005 15:43:41  
Hi Matt,
I have been reading the responses to your TO20 sputtering problem. I have a TO20 with exactly the same problem. I have rebuilt the carb., installed a new manifold checked out the gas and still it sputters. After rebuilding the carb., the float sticks (sometimes closed and sometimes open. When running, a little pull on the choke will stop the sputtering for a few minutes. I have had the carb off numerous times and cannot find why the float sticks. I sure hope we can find the solution to this because I really like my little fergie but right now it is driving me crazy. I might mention that a full carb rebuild kit did not seem to help and besides that I have had the first spark plug foul out about every hour since I acquired the tractor in 1971. After replacing the manifold, the last plug fowls at about the same interval. When I adjust the carb leaner to reduce fowling, it stalls out every time the governor opens. I will keep watch of the forum for clues to a solution.

Bob in Michigan

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gerard

10-06-2005 13:13:23




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to MattinRaleigh, 10-05-2005 15:43:41  
Could be coil or condenser,on the basis a better spark is required under load than idling. But I have a hunch the problem is around the main jet -
required when load comes on engine. Is there a possibility of water in your fuel? A drop of water will block a main jet temporarily. Try running fuel into a glass jar & let it stand. If there"s water, it will separate out and be visible.



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MattinRaleigh

10-06-2005 15:49:08




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to gerard, 10-06-2005 13:13:23  
No water in the fuel, I keep it inside my garage at all times and recently refill it from another source while troubleshooting this problem.



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tokruys

10-06-2005 03:56:28




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to MattinRaleigh, 10-05-2005 15:43:41  
Have you checked your spark plugs to see if they are fouling? You say they were replaced them in the spring, but if your TO-20 is like mine and burns some oil, they may be getting fouled by now.



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Tim in OR

10-05-2005 20:33:34




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to MattinRaleigh, 10-05-2005 15:43:41  
Sounds like time to check your points to me Tim



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Jerry/MT

10-05-2005 17:22:11




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to MattinRaleigh, 10-05-2005 15:43:41  
From your last statement (pulling the choke sometimes helps), you could have an air leak downstream of the carburetor caused by a leaking carb to manifold gasket, loose carb to manifold connection, cracked intake manifold, or a leaking intake manifold gasket. However, I would not rule out your ignition system. Check your spark at the secondary side of the coil ( wire that goes into the center of the distributor cap)by pulling it our of the distributor cap, putting a bent wire or a paper clip in the boot, holding it an 1/8 inch away from a good ground and cranking the engine over with the key on. You should see a nice fat, bluish spark. If it's orangey or yellowish then find out why. Could be bad points,wrong point gap, loose connection, bad coil, worn distributor, etc. When you've done these checks get back here and let us know what you found.

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MattinRaleigh

10-05-2005 18:24:18




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to Jerry/MT, 10-05-2005 17:22:11  
Thanks for the advice. I should have mentioned the manifold is new along with gaskets and spark plugs, I replaced them in the spring. Would the fact it runs in nuetral at all throttle positions without problems eliminate any of the items listed?



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Jerry/MT

10-05-2005 20:18:42




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to MattinRaleigh, 10-05-2005 18:24:18  
Not necessarily because you don't have much load on it in neutral. Even at max rpm in neutral the engine is not running any where near max power and the throttle plate is only partially open. Let me tell what happened to me. Mine engine was running very well and one day it started running like a three legged dog. I had recently tumned it and I have a fuel filter in the fuel supply line besides all the standard filter. I started it up and it idle well and when I tried to go out ad plow it started missing. I am real believer in systematic trouble shooting but I was soooo sure that my ignition was fine and I jumped to the conclusion that I had a fuel feed problerm. I pulled the plug out ofthe carb bottom, plenty of fuel. Played with the power jet. No change. Pulled the carb,cleaned it and put a kit in, no change. Ba DUH,What about my spark. Checked it and it was orangey. Checked the distributor, points clean, gap fine. Pushed radially on the shaft with the points closed and the points opened to 0.030" !!!! My shaft and bushing were so wore out that my points were either bouncing or not closing long enough. If I would have checked my spark first and trouble shot that, I would have found the problem in no time at all. Needless to say, I had the distributor rebuilt and it runs like a top. The moral to my story is don't try too much logic to cnvince yourself what the problem is. Gather the facts and data and then draw the conclusions. The truth will set you free.

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mattinraleigh

10-06-2005 16:04:39




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to Jerry/MT, 10-05-2005 20:18:42  
Let me begin with declaring I am new at this. All this talk of points was a bit confusing because I didn't know what they were, so I looked it up, went to the local store and picked up a new set along with some plug wires. I took apart the distributor. The points were in good shape, however there was no gap at all between them.
I installed and reassembled, but now she won't start at all. The spark from the the coil isn't fat, but it is blueish, but I have no reference to compare.
I am still working on it and will advise. I appreciate all of your help, please advise if you have anymore suggestions

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Jerry/MT

10-06-2005 17:58:59




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to mattinraleigh, 10-06-2005 16:04:39  
To check the point gap, the rubbing block on the points must be on the high point of the cam. there should be a slight drag on the feeler guage when you pull it between the points. Push radially on the distributor shaft with the points in the closed position and watch the contact points, they should not open when you do this. If they do, the bushing and shaft are wornand the distributor will need to be rebuilt. Do you have a 6V or a 12V system?

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MattinRaleigh

10-06-2005 18:11:49




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to Jerry/MT, 10-06-2005 17:58:59  
I have a 6V starter with a 12V battery and alternator. I also just realized theat it is a TE-20 SN79..., with a lucas distributor. Could the points touching cause my issue. There isn't much play in the shaft. I did get it started but I am unbale to verify if issue is resolved becaue we are finally geting some rain. I will let you guys know.



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Jerry/MT

10-07-2005 13:07:34




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to MattinRaleigh, 10-06-2005 18:11:49  
The points should only touch (that is, be closed)when the rubbing block on the point arm is on the flat spot on the distributor cam.(the number of degrees of rotation that they are closed is called the "dwell angle".) They should be open when the rubbing block is on the high point of the cam. When the points are closed, the coil primary is being charged by the battery. When they open, the primary field collapses and induces a high voltage in the secondary coil circuit. That's what fires the spark plug. When you "set the points", you are setting the gap with the rubbing block on the high point of the cam and that also sets the dwell angle, which is what you really want to be right.

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MattinRaleigh

10-07-2005 14:36:08




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to Jerry/MT, 10-07-2005 13:07:34  
Should I be able to turn distributor cam by hand?



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Jerry/MT

10-08-2005 11:46:25




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to MattinRaleigh, 10-07-2005 14:36:08  
You should be able to rotate the top of the distributor shaft with the cam against the advance springs. You should have very little RADIAL PLAY in the shaft/bushing. To check for radial play, put your finger on the side of the shaft and push toward the center of the shaft(radial direction)with the points closed. You should see very little motion at the points and they definetly should not open.

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Mattinraleigh

10-09-2005 14:12:34




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to Jerry/MT, 10-08-2005 11:46:25  
There isn't much radial play, I took the cover off and watched it as I hit the starter to see it in action. Everything appeared to be operating fine with points opening on high points of cam and closing on the low points. There is one thing that concernes me though, I am unable to turn the cam by hand.
Also, I thought I had found the problem when I couldn't lift the gound terminal off of the battery without the tractor shutting down, I swapped batteries and could lift the ground terminal with no problems, but I tested it this afternoon and the she sputtered again after a bit.
I am going to try a new distributor cap tomorrow, the contacts where the plug wires connect are pretty dirty and I broke the the little spring loaded button on the inside of the cap where the coil voltage comes in.

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Jerry/MT

10-09-2005 19:42:10




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to Mattinraleigh, 10-09-2005 14:12:34  
Matt, it seems to me that your ignition should shut down if you disconnect the ground from the battery 'cuz you've broken the circuit. If you swapped batteries and got it to work with the ground disconnected, you've got something going to ground somewhere. To check for radial play, you have to push radially on the distributor shaft with the points closed. You can't just crank it over and see it. When the engine is running at higher speeds it'll just get worse.
What are your plug wires like? If your going to replace the cap and your wires are old and have cracks in them, you might consider replacing them also. Make sure that you replace them with copper core wires NOT carbon core.
Regarding the advance mechanism, have you tried turning it in both directions? I believe the rotor turns counter clockwise so to advance the spark, the cam has to go clockwise.

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mattinraleigh

10-10-2005 15:06:00




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to Jerry/MT , 10-09-2005 19:42:10  
I am awaiting a new lucas distributor cap, but after speaking with the local tractor shop, they seem convinced it is gas, so I am soaking my carb and got a rebuild kit.
I thought I read on this forum that with a - 12v ground system, I should be lift battery ground to verify charging system is powering electrical system and not running off of battery.



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Jerry/MT

10-12-2005 18:49:24




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 Re: TO-20 Sputtering in reply to mattinraleigh, 10-10-2005 15:06:00  
The charging system "charges the battery". battery is analogous to an electrical reservior. The alternator (or generator) keeps it "full". You can run with a dead alternator (or generator) but not without a battery.



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