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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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Carburetor

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Paul F B

12-24-2003 09:33:39




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Merry Christmas everyone. I'm still pondering the carburetor question for my TEA ferguson. I was thinking of ordering a TO carb because my tractor has already been modified to accept the mount and because the Zenith is so difficult to locate. Then I read Jim W's post about a Holly and later model Zenith and he added -"At least these models were selected specifically for the Standard engine". I have read Jim's posts for several years now and have the utmost respect for his mechanical know how. My question, does the carburater simply measure and distribute the amount of gas called for by the engine or does it have other functions. i.e. Why would it not be a good idea to put a carb on that wasn't made for a Standard engine? Thanks for any help. Paul

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Jim W

12-25-2003 21:09:30




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 Re: Carburetor in reply to Paul F B, 12-24-2003 09:33:39  
Hi Paul,
First thanks for the complement but warning! I am not a mechanic! I have learned most of my tractor stuff by translating it from what I know about cars, which I mostly have picked up over the years by hands-on trial and error combined with lots of discussion with other folks. In other words don't take my posts as gospel - weigh them in with everything else you hear.
Carbs have to do what the engine demands of them, so there are as many different carb requirements as engine designs. As already mentioned the air/gas mixture has to be just right. The carb has to be able to properly use the amount of air flowing through it. The air must be passing through the venturi (narrower area in the carb throat) fast enough to create a vacuum to draw in the fuel and atomize it, yet the venturi can't be so narrow as to overly restrict the total air/fuel mixture to the engine. Airflow through the carb depends on rpm of the engine, displacement of the engine (cubic inches), size of manifolds and porting in the head (assuming overhead cam), diameter of intake and exhaust valves, cam profile (how long is the intake valve open?), whether there is significant back pressure from the exhaust system, and probably other things.
I *think* that a carb can really only be designed to be optimal at one rpm, and at all other rpms there are tradeoffs. Someone please jump in and help me here...
At the one given rpm the airflow can be calculated, the venturi sized properly, and the needle sized to deliver the right amount of fuel. At other rpms we see (especially on a car) things like a second venturi coming into play (two barrel carb), and additional air passageways opening up to better atomize the greater quantity of fuel, etc. I suppose it's not so bad on a tractor where the range of rpms is much narrower. Notice on the 24T2 the instructions tell you to open up the fuel jet some amount if you will be doing heavy work so it's not as refined as on a car which would cope with it automatically (well cars have pretty much switched over to fuel injection now anyway).
I'm starting to ramble. My point is that each engine design is unique, and that is why there is such a vast range of carburetor models and variants.
As an example, for the carbs on my Triumph car, there are 354 different needles available. As I say, my knowledge is really more car-based but knowing this, I think that even an old Fergie must have reasonably precise carb requirements.
Sorry for the length of this but hope it helps,
Jim

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Jerry/MT

12-26-2003 09:52:50




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 Re: Re: Carburetor in reply to Jim W, 12-25-2003 21:09:30  
Jim,
I don't believe that the carb is optimized at just one airflow. The jetting is optimum over a range of airflows and then additional circuits are added to the carburetor to optimize it over the rest of the ranges of interest. For tractors the range of operation, as you point out, is relatively narrow. That's why these carbs usually only have an idle circuit and a powere circuit. In automobiles, the range is much greater so you have,as a minimum, and idle circuit, a midrange circuit, and a power circuit. That leads to greater complexity in the carburetor and, I might add reduced reliability. With the emmision requirements imposed by law, the allowable range of fuel/air ratios was narrowed further and we saw that carburetors became so complex that they were unreliable. That's why we have the fuel injection systems so prevalent today. The techology was there to allow precision control across the whole range of operartion and it's also cheaper to manufacture.
Well sorry about the long winded response. thanks for the discussion on this subject.

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Jerry/MT

12-24-2003 14:12:42




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 Re: Carburetor in reply to Paul F B, 12-24-2003 09:33:39  
Spark ignition engines will only operate within a narrow range of fuel to air ratios. The carburetor uses a throttle plate to vary the airflow and thus the engine power and meters the fuel to keep the fuel airflow ratio nearly constant.It ustilizes several circuits to do this;generally an idle circuit and a power circuit as a minimum. It also has a feature to enrich the mixture for cold starting, i.e. the choke. On a tractor, it is used in conjunction with a governor so that engine speed may be set by the throttle lever and maintained nearly constant as the load varies. Hope this helps.

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Paul F B

12-24-2003 20:20:13




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 Re: Re: Carburetor in reply to Jerry/MT, 12-24-2003 14:12:42  
Thanks Jerry; Boy, I have a lot to learn. Your explanation of the carb function was excellent. I hope someone will also answer my question- why would it not be a good idea to put a carb on that wasn't made for a Standard engine? Then again, maybe your explanation does answer that question.



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Jerry/MT

12-25-2003 17:54:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Carburetor in reply to Paul F B, 12-24-2003 20:20:13  
Paul,
You can put "another" carb on the engine as long as that carb a) fits to the manifold and air cleaner interfaces, b) is compatible with the throttle/governor and choke linkages, and c)has a venturi and jets that are sized for the airflow that the engine requires. You have to meet all these requirements on the same carb. That's why its hard replace a 200 cfm carb with any ol' 200 cfm carb. You hafta' have compatible physical interfaces besides the proper flow rating. Hope this helps

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Paul F B

12-25-2003 20:26:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Carburetor in reply to Jerry/MT, 12-25-2003 17:54:44  
Okay guys,-Jerry,John- see what you think about this "kit" that's available. I know it's a lot of money but if it makes my little hobby tractor happy, I probably will go for it. Paul



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John, In

12-26-2003 10:44:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Carburetor in reply to Paul F B, 12-25-2003 20:26:07  
Yep, that sure is a lot of money. Check out link below.



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Mr Chapp

12-28-2003 06:46:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Carburetor in reply to John, In, 12-26-2003 10:44:02  
Have to agree with jerry/MT, if the butterfly shaft is even in 1/2 way decent condition a good rebuild, paying close attention to initial settings, ie float and mixture settings, should be sufficient. Even if the shaft is loose, there may be bushings available as well as oversize shafts. Carburettors seldom, if ever, wear out. Good luck, have fun !!!



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Paul F B

12-26-2003 11:34:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Carburetor in reply to John, In, 12-26-2003 10:44:02  
John; I tried the YT site and only found one carb for my TEA- "Rebuilt Carburetor - Fits TEA20 - replacement for OEM 01201, 01264 (BRITISH). Add $45.00 core charge to price - this charge is refundable if you send your core to us. (Regular price $280.50, your cost $255.00) (Part No: 1603-CARB)" I e-mailed and got a reply that they are currently out of core/rebuilts and to try back in two weeks. Jerry; the carb on it now is a copy of the Marvel-Scheblers fitted to TO's and has worked OK intermittently but has been modified and rebuilt to no avail on the long term.The local Massey dealer said an original Marvel would probably work a lot better. Happy New Year to all you guys and thanks for the knowledgable input. I still haven't decided what I will do. Paul

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Jerry/MT

12-26-2003 13:03:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Carburetor in reply to Paul F B, 12-26-2003 11:34:00  
Paul, I can't believe your Marvel-Schebler can't be rebuilt. They are a very basic carb. The key to a sucessfull rebuild is a thorough cleaning. Everyhing on the carb that can wear is replaceable and the kit is about $30 +/-.
There is an outfit that sells Zenith carburetors as a direct replacement for the TSX361 and 361A for about $230 exchg. Write me at brknhkrnch@stignatius.net and I'll give you the link. hope this helps.

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John, IN

12-26-2003 10:47:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Carburetor in reply to John, In, 12-26-2003 10:44:02  
Sorry



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Jerry/MT

12-26-2003 09:55:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Carburetor in reply to Paul F B, 12-25-2003 20:26:07  
Paul, That's a lot of money? What is the basic problem with your existing carb that makes you want to go this route? Are you sure a rebuilt carb won't work?



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John, IN

12-25-2003 09:39:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Carburetor in reply to Paul F B, 12-24-2003 20:20:13  
I belive that any carb would work on your engine as long as it would deliver enough gas and air to it. Engine manufacturers then as of today make their engines to fit the carbs or is it, carbs to fit their engines that they can get the cheapest. So one would just have to buy or make an adapter to to accept other carburetors. Hope this helps.



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