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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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PULLING SAFE

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STEVE MO

11-24-2003 13:26:17




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I have a TO-20 now and then I need to pull something other than a tractor implement. My tractor has no draw bar under the PTO or on the rear axel. Is it ok to use the draw bar that goes between the lift arms or is that not smart? Also if I am trying to get something unstuck should I try to pull backward? Had my pickup stuck in the mud one time and tried to pull it out, now I think that was not smart.

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TorqueDiagram

11-26-2003 19:49:08




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 Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to STEVE MO, 11-24-2003 13:26:17  
third party image

I'll try linking a diagram I posted on my website, done like my good ol' high school physics teacher did 'em back in 1960, so my memory may be a little rusty. Comments welcome.
Obviously, attaching above the rear axle would increase the lift on the front wheels immensely.
Tex Ferguson

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STEVE MO

11-25-2003 14:01:30




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 Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to STEVE MO, 11-24-2003 13:26:17  
Thanks to all, how I love this site!



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Jeff

11-25-2003 10:30:08




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 Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to STEVE MO, 11-24-2003 13:26:17  
This is an interesting thread. I would take a little issue with some of the advise.

1) Pulling backwards is not the best set-up as tractorfix said the cleats on the wheels are in the wrong direction for traction. Also the pull load will try to flip the tractor.

2) ALWAYS pull with the drawbar as low to the ground as possible! NOT HIGH. If the load stops the movement of the tractor, then the torque of the drive shaft will try to flip the tractor BACKWARDS. The only thing that keeps this from happening is a) the weight of the tractor acting at the center of gravity infront of the rear axle. and b) the drag load force times it's distance below the rear axle.

If you pull with the arms at the axle height then only the engine weight is keeping you from a roll over. If you pull with the drawbar higher than the rear axle then both the drag load and the wheel torque are working together to flip the tractor.

I would highly disagree that putting an implement on the back will add any safety factor. In fact I would argue that it is less safe.
a) The implement weight counter acts the front end weight pushing you closer to a roll-over. (mentally keep adding weight to the back and you will see that the teter-totter will go down on that side of the rear axle.) Thus the added weight is undesireable.
b) an implement will not stop a tractor from going over backwards. The hydrolics have NO DOWN force. Thus if the tractor goes over the three point will simply swing out of the way, pinning you between the top of the rear blade and the seat.

The Safest setup is to connect the load forward of the rear axle. However ther is no good attach point. Attaching to the front axle is not adviseable as it is not strong enough to handle the force.

I hope this helps...

Jeff

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Cosmo

11-25-2003 15:36:13




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 Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to Jeff, 11-25-2003 10:30:08  
I take issue with some of your issues. I don't see how pulling from the front can flip a tractor. Now to the back. The attach points for the lift arms are located below the axle center line thereby putting more weight on the front- not less-as you pull. I highly AGREE that an implement will add both traction and a safety factor if kept close to the ground. The hydraulics don't need down force to prevent a back flip. If the front rises, the harrow or whatever, will contact the ground and the wheels simply spin. This ain't theory cause I'm still alive after many such episodes. And always remember you do have a clutch! As far as pulling from the front, my tractor has a guard bolted to the front axle mount, not the axle. It do come in handy.

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Jeff

11-26-2003 05:19:43




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 Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to Cosmo, 11-25-2003 15:36:13  
Well as usual retrospec of what is typed shows what was ment and could be interperted can be oppisite.

Point 1) was in agreement with tractorfix concerning tread cleats. The given statement can easily be interperted the other way. The statement that by pulling backwards the force used to pull the load will create a torque that will be in the direction of lifting the front wheels. enough power to do it or not was not discussed (in my mind) although I can see how the statement could be read differently.

Two year ago I asked if a rear implement would protect from a rearward flip and had my fingers severly cracked and was laughed at by the replies that I thought an implement would help... my fingers still hurt.

Also, I was just a little pissed off by the reply by rotten robert... Here is a real issue that does matter and should be better understood. Now whether he ment it as toung and cheek or sarcasim I don't know... I guess I am still feeling the toung lashing I got for asking the implement question a few years ago. i.e. I want to know and no one will give a straight answer. At least this time people did...

Sorry for the confussion...
Jeff

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john(UK)

11-26-2003 14:40:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to Jeff, 11-26-2003 05:19:43  
Cant see why they laughed at you it was a perfectly acceptable question, most likely they didnt know what the answer should be and just said anything that came into their head. What they should have done was not to confuse the issue and you and keep quiet until they had something useful to say.



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cosmo

11-26-2003 06:58:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to Jeff, 11-26-2003 05:19:43  
So I still don't know if we agree or not. I was just writing of my own experience and observations. The saying goes "If you are so smart why ain't you rich?" Well, I am poor!!! :) I still like these forums. With the arguments, wise cracks, humerous jabs, and all that stuff we can occasionally learn from one another.



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Jeff

11-26-2003 09:43:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to cosmo, 11-26-2003 06:58:16  
The other saying is "God looks after fools and Englishmen... and I'm not English" :-) have a great Thanksgiving...



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Cosmo

11-26-2003 14:27:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to Jeff, 11-26-2003 09:43:16  
Thanks, I enjoyed our little exchange. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours and may God bless. Cosmo



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Paul F B

11-24-2003 21:08:48




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 Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to STEVE MO, 11-24-2003 13:26:17  
Steve- I also use the backblade method and have pulled dozens of stubborn sumac and other weed trees this way. I would, however, like to add a ROPS to the tractor due to living on very hilly land. I have been attempting to contact Bareco USA but have been unsuccessful. Anyone have a suggestion for ROPS? Paul



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rotten robert

11-24-2003 17:05:05




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 Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to STEVE MO, 11-24-2003 13:26:17  
Yes you can pull off of the drawbar on the lift arms. If you are in a tough pull slightly raise the hitch to increase traction. You may need to steer with your turning brakes as the front end will start getting light. By now the Darwin effect will be taking over and only dumb luck will get you out of this mess. Oh make sure you're insurance is paid up and your wife has 911 on speed dial and knows where all the important paperwork is.

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marlowe

11-24-2003 18:05:32




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 Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to rotten robert, 11-24-2003 17:05:05  
HAY rotten robert i sure don't see the humor in your post!at least he had the brains to ask if it was safe and the answer is yes [IF] you use the top link stablizer bars. i just don't see why people have to give smart as- answers!!! and yes this is my real name not a made up one like yours



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old

11-24-2003 16:52:02




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 Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to STEVE MO, 11-24-2003 13:26:17  
When I need to pull something with one of my tractors with 3 point hitch I put my back blade on it and pull from it. That way there is no way to flip it over and it adds weight for traction



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Tex Ferguson

11-24-2003 18:24:13




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 Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to old, 11-24-2003 16:52:02  
You gotta consider your angles. I broke the back of my blade by bringing a chain under the blade and hooking to the top of the blade, because it was quick and easy. When the chain got tight, the mesquite stump held its ground and the angular torque on the blade caused the steel backbone to break and twist. I got it welded and learned not to hook up that way again.

I wish my good old high school physics teacher would post one of his chalkboard diagrams illustrating the torque effect of the height of the drawbar. Common sense tells me if it is above the axle height, the front wheels will tend to come up sooner.

Tex

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old

11-24-2003 18:38:37




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 Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to Tex Ferguson, 11-24-2003 18:24:13  
Well I have been doing it that way for more them 20 years and its still in one piece, the other day I pulled a log skidder for a guy and I couldn't steer with the front wheels but I moved it to where it needed to be so he could replace the U joint he had broke. By the way I have a very heavy duty back blade and keep 6 IH weights on it at all times



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marlowe

11-24-2003 15:35:59




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 Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to STEVE MO, 11-24-2003 13:26:17  
you can use your 3pt. but you [MUST] use the upper lift arm stablizer bars.this keeps your lift arms from going up and you must have your pto turned [OFF]this will also turn off your hyd.pump. if you don't have upper stablizers get them. the owners mannul says your draw bar should be no more then 16in high



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Frank (VA)

11-25-2003 03:46:02




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 Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to marlowe, 11-24-2003 15:35:59  
This is an interesting thread.

Why should the PTO be off?

I skidded a dozen or so big (12 feet x 12-18 inches) black locust logs once.I then loaded them on a dump truck with a boom. It worked out ok. I was proud of my To-20, but in retrospect it was insanely dangerous. It is cheaper to hire things out than to risk pretty significant injury. Farming is, after all, one of the most dangerous professions.

Frank

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marlowe

11-25-2003 06:04:43




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 Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to Frank (VA), 11-25-2003 03:46:02  
it has to be off so you lift arns will not raise and bend the top link stablizer bars that hold your 3pt. in the position you choose. hyd.and pto are all on the same system. from what i have seen most people don't have any idea that there are top link stablizers for the 3 pt.



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Frank (VA)

11-25-2003 19:34:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to marlowe, 11-25-2003 06:04:43  
Marlowe,

Thanks, you taught me something.

Frank



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David UK

11-24-2003 14:40:43




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 Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to STEVE MO, 11-24-2003 13:26:17  
Key point is to keep the towing point below the centreline of rear axle. The higher above it you get the more weight you transfer to thee back wheels when pulling BUT the risk of lifting the front wheels and overturning backwards also increases. Provided hitch point is below axle centreline you can pull as hard as you like and all that will happen is wheelslip. Or maybe you get your truck out before wheelslip if you're lucky.

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john(UK)

11-24-2003 14:15:21




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 Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to STEVE MO, 11-24-2003 13:26:17  
We all do things we regret at one time or another Steve, so watch what you are doing with your truck next time. Yes it is ok to pull with that linkage drawbar, just remember the higher you have it the better the traction will be but also the likelyhood of it lifting the front wheels off the floor will be increased.If you always use the drawbar stays to set the height of the drawbar it will be ok, just dont try to do it using the hydraulics to control the drawbar height.

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tractorfix

11-24-2003 14:29:40




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 Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to john(UK), 11-24-2003 14:15:21  
I don't think a tractor would pull good backwards unless you turned the back tires around.



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Hamish

11-26-2003 01:46:16




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 Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to tractorfix, 11-24-2003 14:29:40  
I would argue the point made by tractorfix.
If you want maximum traction, go in reverse.
The reason rear tractor tyres are put on the way the are is to give a compromise between traction and self cleaning. If you are not concerned about self cleaning, i.e. pulling out stuck vehicle, go in reverse for max traction.



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john(UK)

11-26-2003 14:47:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to Hamish, 11-26-2003 01:46:16  
Totally incorrect



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Hamish

11-27-2003 13:01:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to john(UK), 11-26-2003 14:47:01  
Why ?



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Alvin n Ms.

11-28-2003 20:34:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: PULLING SAFE in reply to Hamish, 11-27-2003 13:01:18  
Steve, we used those little tractors to pull logs out of the woods to a sawmill back in the mid 50s. There was not much equipment around back then, we pretty much had to do things the hard way. When pulling the front end was always up in the air, and you steer it with the brakes. The steering wheel is to keep you from falling off. We pulled from between the lift arms. A tractor is not pulling good untill the front comes up and shifts the weight to the rear. Can be hazardous to your health. Keep your foot on the clutch petal to prevent a flip over backwards. You will probably burn the clutch in 10 years or so. You can also lower the lift arms to bring the front down. Still a lot safer than rough riding a motorcycle.My neighbor flipped an 8n ford over backwards pulling a log, and he had the chain hooked up under the tractor. alvinnms

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