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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Manifold heat control valve

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CNKS

12-11-2006 10:06:58




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I may be the only one on this forum dumb enough to actually take one of these things apart and try to fix it. The 460 has a manifold heat control valve. Flapper was stuck open, vertical. In my efforts to free it I broke the weight. Bought all new parts, weight, valve, shaft, spring. Several ways to install. The valve is loose on the shaft and has to be screwed or spot welded on. I assume that when cold, the valve (flapper) is attached to the shaft so that the flapper is vertical allowing exhaust gas to heat the incoming fuel-air mixture in the intake manifold. At the same time the weight is vertical, there is tension on the spring. As the spring heats it expands (loses tension) allowing the weight to close the flapper, thus blocking the exhaust gas from the intake manifold -- Someone tell me if this is correct or wrong. I don't think this has been discussed before.

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jakee

12-11-2006 18:47:00




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to CNKS, 12-11-2006 10:06:58  
make sure the spring has a bunch of tension on ,it will be were you can not hardly budge it. or take it to a harvester dealer and let him winde it up for you i had a bunch of trouble with mine and took it to the dealer and could not belive all the tension he set it at but wen done the tractor would set and hold 75 hp all day.



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CNKS

12-11-2006 20:13:17




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to jakee, 12-11-2006 18:47:00  
I don't understand why it needs much tension. The more tension, the hotter it has to be before the spring expands enough so that the weight can close the valve. It only needs to be open until the tractor warms up. You don't want it open long, because once it is at operating temperature the tractor runs best on a cooler fuel-air mixture. What problems were you having? Seems they should be worse with it stuck open than closed. On this engine closed means that most of the exhaust is blocked from the mixture. If what you say is correct, I'm missing something or else we have different valves?

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Brownie 45

12-11-2006 14:19:49




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to CNKS, 12-11-2006 10:06:58  
Solder won't hold up in the exhaust area. Better to braze or weld it. There was a pin about 3/16ths diameter which stuck out of the manifold to catch the bi-metallic spring hook on the 560s but can't remember if it was on the exh or intake side of where the manifolds came together. Someone on here will know the answer.



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CNKS

12-11-2006 20:05:37




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to Brownie 45, 12-11-2006 14:19:49  
The hook is there, the valve fits in the top of the intake manifold.



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Janicholson

12-11-2006 11:21:27




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to CNKS, 12-11-2006 10:06:58  
You are correct. The "spring" is a bimetalic strip which changes tention in a predictable way. As to how much, I have signifigant experience with heat risers on auto exhaust systems the setting in every case was that when cold (65F) the "spring" just counterballanced the flapper to touch closed. Thus with additional heat, it would proportionally open. My two cents, JimN



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CNKS

12-11-2006 13:05:45




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to Janicholson, 12-11-2006 11:21:27  
Thanks, I was wondering how much tension to put on a cold spring, the answer I guess is "not much". As I said the valve or flapper fits loose on the shaft, I will probably use a small screw or two to hold it in place, and hope they don't get pulled into the engine. I don't weld, I wonder it solder would hold, but I don't want pieces of solder falling off either. Also, the flapper does not fit closely when closed, looks like there will still be considerable exhaust heat going into the intake manifold, seems to me that would hurt performance -- I was a little surprised to see that it had one, those things can cause more problems than good. I don't believe I ever want to separate the exhaust and intake mainifolds on a 48 year old 460 again. No choice but to break the bolts, drill out and retap. Not as easily done as said.

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Janicholson

12-11-2006 19:34:07




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to CNKS, 12-11-2006 13:05:45  
CNKS the Solder would definately melt out. There is no sucked in to worry about, it all goes to the exhaust pipe and out. I would get it centered up where you like it and drill one small hole (1/16") to keep it centered and several small holes (about 5 on each side of the shaft,in the plate right next to the shaft, and wire tie it on with some stainless steel wire. Just an Idea to keep it straight and centered without welding, but permanent. Good luck, JimN

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CNKS

12-11-2006 20:02:56




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to Janicholson, 12-11-2006 19:34:07  
I like the wire idea, the old one was welded. As to getting sucked in, you may be right, but the exhaust manifold is on top of the intake. The valve is inside the intake manifold (that portion of it could be considered part of the exhaust manifold, I suppose). So there is suction going in, exhaust out, with only a couple of inches inbetween -- I'm not sure which way the piece would go.



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Janicholson

12-12-2006 17:09:35




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to CNKS, 12-11-2006 20:02:56  
CNKS,
The exhaust plenum in the intake manifold is not connected in any way with the intake runners. If it were, the engine would be recirculating exhaust and not run at all. In some defective manifolds that have rusted out, the problem is hidden in that "well" like area and hard to find. If it were connected hot exhaust/sparks would ignite the intake mix before entering the cylinders, providing a great backfire. Heat is the only contribution that part of the system adds to the tractor, and that is to enhance vaporization when cold. Good luck, JimN

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CNKS

12-12-2006 20:05:25




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to Janicholson, 12-12-2006 17:09:35  
Makes sense. There are some depressions or holes in the plenum (not rust holes) that appear to go down toward the runners, probably there for heat distribution, I suppose. Now that I think of it, I poked a screw driver in them, and they did not go through -- brain not functioning when I replied to your answer. Also that plenum will have hot exhaust gas in it all the time, as the valve does not completely cover the opening. Since IH made it that way, I suppose it is ok. Don't know much about this tractor, as I bought it, drove it around a little, fixed a few problems, then completely disassembled it for "refurbishing". Have been told that the C221, etc is a very cold running engine, thus the manifold heat control valve. Totally stuck open due to zero maintenance.

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Janicholson

12-13-2006 08:55:10




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to CNKS, 12-12-2006 20:05:25  
They are interesting. I thought up the wire idea due to your disinclination toward welding. Cold should be open to allow heat, when heated up the flapper should be closed reducing the flow of exhaust into the plenum. Just being sure I've said it correctly, some of the posts seemed backwards. JimN



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Brownie 45

12-11-2006 11:19:23




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to CNKS, 12-11-2006 10:06:58  
The spring holds the butterfly closed when cold. When warm, the spring relaxes, & lets the weight open the valve.



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CNKS

12-11-2006 13:08:05




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 Re: Manifold heat control valve in reply to Brownie 45, 12-11-2006 11:19:23  
That's what I thought, just wanted to make sure I didn't have it backward -- thanks!



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