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Ignition System Problems

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Larry Schmitend

10-24-2006 20:33:34




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I have a 240 Utility, wehnt o use it and it wouldn't start. A new coil got it running for about 15 minutes. A little investigation found a bad resistor. Now 2 resistors, another coil, points and condenser and it still won't start unless I bypass the resistor. Then it starts and runs fine. I tested the ignition circit with the distributor cap off, ignition switch on and I get votage to the points through the resistor, and coil when I hold the points open. However when I try to start the enginge I loose spark. I'm thinking a bad ignition switch. Any other ideas?

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Larry Schmitendorf

11-27-2006 14:50:03




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 Re: Ignition System Problems in reply to Larry Schmitendorf, 10-24-2006 20:33:34  
Got it running. The first 2 resistors that I got were .75 oms and were only allowing about 2 volts to the coil. I replaced the resistor with a 1.85 ohm and it now starts and runs, getting about 4.75 volts to the coil. The only place that I found to get parts that was really of much help was the local NAPA store that had 2 pages of resistors to choose from that actually had the ohm ratings so I could choose what I needed.

Thanks to all.

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John T

10-25-2006 07:18:33




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 Re: Ignition System Problems in reply to Larry Schmitendorf, 10-24-2006 20:33:34  
Larry, Those coils labeled "12 volts for use with (or requires) an external ballast resistor" are in reality 6 volts coils and indeed on 12 volt tractors one is required or the coil will run too hot and the points burn up prematurely.

That being said, the next question is WHAT OHMS BALLAST should be used????? It should generally be near the same ohms as the coils primary (measured between its lil + and - terminals) so a 50/50 12/6 voltage divider is formed. Typical of ballast ohms and 6 volt coil primary ohms would be maybe 1.25 to 2 ohms but ifffff ff the ballast is wayyyyy yyy higher in ohms then the coils primary, a low ignition current and resultant weak spark (especially when cranking) can happen!!!!!

BOTTOM LINE you need the correct sized ohms ballast to match the coils primary winding resistance and most Ive seen are in the 1.5 to 1.85 or so ohms range ifffff fff designed for the old point n condensor ignition systems having coils of the primary resistance mentioned above.

NEXT thing I would suspect is a bad/resistive ignition switch which a simple "hot wire" test will answer. Simply by pass eliminate the ignition switch by running a jumper wire direct from the hot ungrounded battery post to the high input (NOT to coil) side of the ballast n see what happens then????? ????? if that cures the problem suspect the switch. With the ignition on and the points closed (if all else is okay) when using a 6 volt coil and an external ballast on a 12 volt tractor there should be near 6 volts on the coils input but if its wayyyyy less suspect a bad switch or the ballast is tooooo o high ohms.

FINALLY I like Olds suggestion,,,,, A weak battery and/or a weak starter can cause excess voltage drop while cranking which causes a weak spark which by passing the ballast could help (as a band aid approach). Have the battery load tested and if it and the cables n starter switch/solenoid are all okay but theres excess voltage drop on the battery while cranking, the starer could be the problem BUTTTTT T FIRST I would remove, clean n wire brush, n reattch each n every battery n starter switch/solenoid n starter n ground cable conenction cuz a bad cable or connection can cause voltage drop and a weak starting spark TRY THAT FIRST !!!!! !!!!!

John T

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Wess C

02-04-2007 05:17:49




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 Re: Ignition System Problems in reply to John T, 10-25-2006 07:18:33  
On a 1948 CUB whith original 6 volt positive ground I cleaned and set the point to .20 and disconnected the condencer , seperated the wire from the points to the coil and installed a TIP3055 npn transister and one diode and guess what....instead of 4.6 amps at the points now its only 70 ma (.07)amps the points go to the base , emitter to the coil , and the collector to the positive ground ,diode is 5 amps 100 volt between the collector and the emitter band towards the collector . The fire is alot hotter ,Doubled the spark gap from .23 to .45 point still at .70 amps .There is no spark or arc visable at the points , the only wear would be at the wiper in about 15 years . I just have it hanging there on a pease of aluminum now but it will bolt down in place of the condencer under the cap. not bad for $2.45 How do I get this out ?

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Larry Schmitendorf

10-25-2006 07:43:12




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 Re: Ignition System Problems in reply to John T, 10-25-2006 07:18:33  
Ah Ha! The new resistors have both been for 75 Ohms. I looks the same, just stamped 75 Ohms. I even called and asked the parts place if there was a different resistor, buy they didn't see anything in the books. Now I know what to ask for. Good thing the parts place is only a couple of miles from the house.



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Bob

10-25-2006 08:17:58




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 Re: Ignition System Problems in reply to Larry Schmitendorf, 10-25-2006 07:43:12  
You must not be seeing the decimal point. Likely, they are .75 Ohms, and are POSSIBLY PTC resistors. If they ARE PTC, the resistance will increase to about 1.75 Ohms within a minute or two of opeation, as the resistor heats up.

For ignition circuits WITH a starting bypass, a FIXED ballast resistor of about 1.75 Ohms is used.

For ignition circuits WITHOUT a starting bypass, use a PTC ballast resistor, which will have a value close to .75 Ohms COLD, increasing to about 1.75 Ohms HOT.

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John T

10-25-2006 08:43:16




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 Re: Ignition System Problems in reply to Bob, 10-25-2006 08:17:58  
Bob, I think you raised a good point, anything that looks like or is even called any sort of an Ignition Ballast Resistor wouldnt be anywhere near 75 ohms..... ..... . He needs a simple ohmmeter test so we at least know its value when cold.

John T



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55 50

10-25-2006 08:17:13




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 Re: Ignition System Problems in reply to Larry Schmitendorf, 10-25-2006 07:43:12  
Wow, 75 ohms!!! Somebody in that parts store or manufacturing place doesn't understand anything about ignition systems.



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Larry Schmitendorf

10-25-2006 08:52:01




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 Re: Ignition System Problems in reply to 55 50, 10-25-2006 08:17:13  
I'm sorry but I don't understand a lot about ignition systems, that's why I'm asking questions and trying to learn. It probably is .75 Ohms, with the text that thin and small I could have missed the decimal point or maybe it didn't print when it was manufactured.

If my new resistor is .75 Ohms then I guess my question is, is it correct or do I need something else? Unfortunately the original resistor that I took out had no markings on at all to know for sure what the Ohms were.

I can tell with a test light that the light is dimmer on the low side of the new resistor than it is on the high side when I can get current through it. That brings me back to the fact that I can get current but it won't fire to start.

I now have some more ideas to try to test the switch, battery and starter. I won't know until I've don that if I still have a problem.

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hoosier Tom

10-24-2006 21:22:13




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 Re: Ignition System Problems in reply to Larry Schmitendorf, 10-24-2006 20:33:34  
I wouldn't think the switch would be bad if it will run by bypassing the res. Some coils require an external risistor and some have it built in. You might have a coil with the res. built in plus an external res.



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Larry Schmitendorf

10-25-2006 06:17:07




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 Re: Ignition System Problems in reply to hoosier Tom, 10-24-2006 21:22:13  
The coil is marked "external resistor" and the parts store is pretty specific about that when I got the last new one.

For some reason I"m losing current when the switch is in the start position. I"m going to test the switch and starter and see where that takes me.



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old

10-24-2006 20:53:45




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 Re: Ignition System Problems in reply to Larry Schmitendorf, 10-24-2006 20:33:34  
Well either you have a 12 volt coil and you don't need the resister. Or and this may sound funny your starter is going bad and takes way to much juice to spin the engine over then it should and that takes away from the ignition system. I would pull the starter off and have it checked, most auto parts stores will do that for free

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