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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Super A 6V vs 12V Condenser?

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City-Boy McCoy

07-21-2006 07:30:40




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Fellows, I have a '53 Super A, with battery ignition, which has been converted to 12V. It has a 12V coil, therefore, does not have, nor need, an in line ballast resistor. It starts running a little rough after about 15-20 minutes. I'm thinking either the coil or the condenser is breaking down under the heat. Is there (a difference between) a 6V condenser and a 12V one? I need to know what to ask for at the parts store. We don't have a Case/IH dealer here, so I have to go to somewhere like NAPA - and they won't know. Guess I'll need to either tell them "1953 Super A" (6V) or "1975 140" (12V) if there is a difference between the two? Thanks. Mike

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John T

07-21-2006 12:00:09




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 Re: Super A 6V vs 12V Condenser? in reply to City-Boy McCoy, 07-21-2006 07:30:40  
McCoy, I agree with Bob. The condensors Voltage Withstand rating is farrrrr rrrrr rr higher then 6 or 12 volts anyway, sooooo ooooo an off the shelf condensor wouldnt likely be any different if for a 6 or 12 or heck even a 24 volt system etc., CUZ THEY ARE RATED WAYYYYY YYYY HIGHER THEN ANY OF THOSE VOLTAGES ANYWAY.

The condensor is more of a current and energy absorbing passive device then anything thats voltage related or voltage sensitive or voltage dependant. Its job is to prevent premature burning up of the points and it does that by serving an as empty well/bank just sitting there waiting to accept the inrush of electrons that occurs when the points break open and the coils current reallyyyyy yy wants to keep flowing somewhere, and its absorbing of them prevents as much arcing n sparking across the points which would quickly burn them up.

NEXT some coils are labeled "12 volts for use with an external ballast resistor" and if so they are in reality a 6 volts coil in which case an external voltage dropping (12 to 6) ballast resistor is required or else the coil overheats and the points burn up quickly. A true full 12 volt rated coil (some call internally ballasted) is labeled 12 volts or else 12 volts NO ballast required,,,,, ,,,, Sooooo if thats the coil you have (true full 12 volt) dont use any ballast. HOWEVER if otherwise add one.

Its possible that condensors can break down and especially when they warm up, so since they are much cheaper then a coil anyway, Id try a new one if in doubt. If she still has problems after warm up then Id suspect the coil or the points among other things.

Hope this helps understanding of the condensor and why one used on a 6 or 12 volts system is most likely the exact same thing. Its NOT true that all condensors are 6 volts, they have a voltage withstand rating muchhhhh hhh higher then 6 or 12 anyway as the voltage spike across them when the points break open is also muchhhhh h higher then that as Bob explained.

Take care yall n God Bless

John T Retired Electrical Engineer

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IH2444

07-21-2006 09:38:39




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 Re: Super A 6V vs 12V Condenser? in reply to City-Boy McCoy, 07-21-2006 07:30:40  
Your points condenser is bad when your points grow spikes on them. If no spikes , keep on useing em.



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Bob

07-21-2006 07:54:44




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 Re: Super A 6V vs 12V Condenser? in reply to City-Boy McCoy, 07-21-2006 07:30:40  
The condensors are subject to spikes of at least several hundred Volts when the breaker points open, and their breakdown voltage rating is 300 Volts or more.

The change from 6-Volts to 12-Volts does NOT require a different condensor.



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RustyFarmall

07-21-2006 07:46:54




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 Re: Super A 6V vs 12V Condenser? in reply to City-Boy McCoy, 07-21-2006 07:30:40  
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think ALL points and condensor ignition systems are 6 volt only. This means that your 12 volt coil will, or should, have an internal resistor which drops the voltage to the points and condensor down to 6 volts. Generally speaking, when a condensor goes bad, it just quits. You might try touching the coil when the tractor starts running rough and find if the coil is hot. A coil will be warm to the touch, but should never be hot.

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randy hall

07-21-2006 08:44:58




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 Re: Super A 6V vs 12V Condenser? in reply to RustyFarmall, 07-21-2006 07:46:54  
how can all point and condenser systems be six volt when a lot of tractors and cars and trucks had twelve volt systems with points and condensers, up to around 1976. even md's were twelve volt for the starting ignition back in the early forties.



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RustyFarmall

07-21-2006 09:38:03




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 Re: Super A 6V vs 12V Condenser? in reply to randy hall, 07-21-2006 08:44:58  
Because they all used either an inline resistor to drop the voltage down to 6, or they used a coil with an internal resistor. Cars, trucks, tractors, all the same.



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Bob

07-21-2006 12:03:20




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 Re: Super A 6V vs 12V Condenser? in reply to RustyFarmall, 07-21-2006 09:38:03  
Almost without exception, "12-Volt" coils DON'T have an internal resistor.

They are simply wound with more wire in the primary, to function on 12-Volts.

It is not the VOLTAGE rating of the coil (or points) that causes them to burn or fail, it it the excessive primary circuit CURRENT that results when there is not enough resistance in the overall primary circuit to limit closed-point current to 3 to 4 Amps. Current beyond that range will overheat and "kill" the coil, and BURN the breaker points.

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City-Boy McCoy

07-21-2006 07:57:06




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 Re: Super A 6V vs 12V Condenser? in reply to RustyFarmall, 07-21-2006 07:46:54  
Ah-ha! You have jogged my memory; I seem to remember something about the ignition system remaining 6V to the distributor. Thanks for the reminder; I'm thinking you are exactly right. Thanks again. Mike



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