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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Throttle Body Injection for 50 Yr. Old Farmalls?

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Bill in NC

09-07-2005 11:48:43




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Was driving down the road thinking about a common response seen on this board regarding how gas Farmalls have fewer operating hours than diesel Farmalls of the same type because of the better fuel use characteristics of diesels. A carburator is optimized to a certain power/rpm range, whereas injectors in a diesel provide a means to optimize across a much wider power/
rpm range. A diesel 656 can idle or it can run full power pulling a bottom plow and the injectors deliver the optimum fuel charge for the two vastly different air flow and power conditions.

Has anyone heard of anyone taking a throttle-body type injector system from, say, a 2.8 liter Chevy V-6 and putting it on a Farmall 560 gas engine? I hear about hot rodders putting fuel injection on all sorts of old motors. It seems like it could be done for a tractor motor. Would there still be a need for a governor? If so, how would someone inter-link a governor to a fuel injection unit? Seems like a throttle-body fuel injection system would naturally act like a governor set-up what with its mass air flow sensor and (I assume) rpm monitoring system.

Anybody heard of throttle body fuel injection retrofitted to Farmalls?

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Jim Allen

09-08-2005 05:36:30




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 Re: Throttle Body Injection for 50 Yr. Old Farmall in reply to Bill in NC, 09-07-2005 11:48:43  
A retrofit TBI injection system could be made to work quite well on an old tractor, but you'd have to have a stand alone, programmable ECU and a lot of time with a laptop to dial it in. You'd also have to address the archaic ignition system that most old tractors use and have some way to better map ignition timing curves... possibly with a retrofit distributorless ignition system . This would be a fair bit of work and the best results, or maybe just SATISFACTORY results, would require a lot of effort. I have participated in the installation of a lot of retrofit EFI systems on trucks and 4x4s. Most of them have a technology and level-of-difficulty curve that are not clearly ilustrated in the magazine stories or the ad hype. There are some VERY important little tips, such as the placement of the electric fuel pump to avoid fuel shear. The biggest issue would be programming because these old tractor powerplants have such a radically different power curve than the average car or truck engine. You'd have a chance that a "generic" program might work OK for the "average" car, but would be totally unsuitable for a low revving, long stroke, big displacemnt tractor engine. Thee would also be issues of properly protecting the electronics from the environment. It would be a fun project, but not an easy one.

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Bob

09-07-2005 19:30:57




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 Re: Throttle Body Injection for 50 Yr. Old Farmall in reply to Bill in NC, 09-07-2005 11:48:43  
It would not be NEARLY as difficult as you guys make it sound!



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JB2

09-07-2005 18:08:15




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 Re: Throttle Body Injection for 50 Yr. Old Farmall in reply to Bill in NC, 09-07-2005 11:48:43  
Hi Chadd, One reason a Diesel engine burns less fuel than a gasoline engines is that 1 gallon of Diesel contains more energy than 1 gallon of gasoline, see below:

From>Link

Diesel>Link fuel has a higher energy density than gasoline. On average, 1 gallon (3.8 L) of diesel fuel contains approximately 155x106 joules (147,000 BTU), while 1 gallon of gasoline contains 132x106 joules (125,000 BTU). This, combined with the improved efficiency of diesel engines, explains why diesel engines get better mileage than equivalent gasoline engines.

My 2 cents
JB2

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chadd

09-07-2005 13:06:04




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 Re: Throttle Body Injection for 50 Yr. Old Farmall in reply to Bill in NC, 09-07-2005 11:48:43  
The problem is that there is no engine computer (that I know of) that is designed to run a gas tractor engine. The fuel curves and operating perameters would have to be completely reset to make the engine run properly, as no car engine has an rpm range from 600 to 2400 rpm. It certainly could be done, but it would require someone who has a lot of time and money. You would need a crankshaft sensor, camshaft sensor, MAP sensor or a mass airflow sensor, a throttle body, an engine computer, and a 12 volt electrical system, a fuel pump, improved filtering system, an electronic distributor and a lot of know how. The sensor on the crank is a hall-effect sensor, which uses magnets forged into the surface of the crank journal to "trip a switch", so that would have to be added too. Also, you are right, the fuel system could be used as a governor, but the mechanical governor could be utilized as well. It could be done, but I have never heard of anyone trying.

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the tractor vet

09-07-2005 18:58:03




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 Re: Throttle Body Injection for 50 Yr. Old Farmall in reply to chadd, 09-07-2005 13:06:04  
I have thought about that alot and one of these day i will run into a computer geek that want to do something differant . I would love to do a 706 up that way and see if we could pull way over 140 hp. now that would be a real hoot . Them boy up at bunker hill would go ballistic if i did that and cleaned there clocks again with a 706 like we did two years in a row 8500 -12500 first place with a 65 706 gasser narrow ft fast hitch stright from the dead row of and auction in indy. They were so mad at us that they asked us not to come back and as we were loading they turned the lites out on us. Oh well sore lossers.

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RustyFarmall

09-07-2005 13:51:52




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 Re: Throttle Body Injection for 50 Yr. Old Farmall in reply to chadd, 09-07-2005 13:06:04  
No car engine has an operating range of 600 to 2400 RPMs? Pay attention to your tachometer the next time you are driving. I think you will find that at 60 mph, the tach will be reading right at 1800 rpms or less, well within the rpm range of any tractor engine.



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chadd

09-07-2005 15:26:21




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 Re: Throttle Body Injection for 50 Yr. Old Farmall in reply to RustyFarmall, 09-07-2005 13:51:52  
Yes, you are right, thank you for catching my mistake. However, the engine computer has fuel curves that are set to optimize fuel delivery (enrichen the mixture) at rpms that are higher than that. What I meant is that wide open throttle in the injection system is set for when the engine reaches redline (on many cars 5000 to 8000 rpm). Most cars (four cylinders and sixes) are not making anywhere near max power at 1800 rpm. Tractors are. Many engine computers operate in open loop configuration at such low rpms. This means that they don't pay attention to load, temperature, or several of the sensors, instead they follow a prerecorded fuel map in the computer. The ECM would need to be reprogrammed accordingly to make the tractor operate respectfully. These are just my thoughts. I am no expert, so if something in my logic seems wrong, it probably is. Just let me know so I don't give the wrong answer again. Thanks for your correction.

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Janicholson

09-07-2005 15:12:14




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 Re: Throttle Body Injection for 50 Yr. Old Farmall in reply to RustyFarmall, 09-07-2005 13:51:52  
Stop stop your both correct!!!!!
The issue is getting a computer system to feed the stochiometric (ideal)14:1 air to fuel ratio to the engine under warm run conditions, variable loads, and speeds ranging from 450 to 2500 (for those with the wick turned up higher).
Also needed is a method of providing cold start enrichment, and high vacuum shutoff.
The best approach is to use a system that triggers off of a crank sensor (magnet can be placed on flywheel), oxygen sensor (drilled into exhaust manafold), and various temperature, pressure, and air flow transducers. I think it is entirely possible. Robbing a donor car, and making the system work correctly is not hard, just time consuming and worthit if the end result is good looking, functional/reliable. It should then be written up in a how to booklet so that others can follow by cook book implementation. Govenor action would be from existing linkage to the throttle body, or air flow control. Would it help? yes.
We could even use a catylitic converter to advantage.
For antiques and show purposes, no way.
Our future with working tractors is to be responsible, conservative with resources, and to not throwaway good usable high reliability hardware. the prices of new tractors wounds my retinas.
It is an item I hope to "supercharge" some of my better students into attempting in the next few years.
JimN

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Bill in NC

09-07-2005 17:42:21




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 Re: Throttle Body Injection for 50 Yr. Old Farmall in reply to Janicholson, 09-07-2005 15:12:14  
Janinicholson,
Great thoughts!! You sound like you teach shop/mechanics classes. Do you teach at a high school or technical college?

Regarding throttle-body fuel injection, together with electronic ignition, what kind of power boost would be likely? 10%?, 15%?, More? You mentioned catalytic converter. Is that for providing cleaner exhaust, because I can't see how installing a catalytic converter would increase engine efficiency.

How much harder would it be to go all the way to install multi-
port fuel injection on a tractor? Thanks for your thoughts.

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Janicholson

09-08-2005 10:49:49




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 Re: Throttle Body Injection for 50 Yr. Old Farmall in reply to Bill in NC, 09-07-2005 17:42:21  
I am a Professor at St. Cloud State University ~15,000 students in the school. I teach Computer Aided Solid Modeling, Energy Management and Product Development (among others). My department is Environmental and Technological studies. Majors in Technology Management, Technology Education (old Industrial Arts), and Environmental Studies.

The real deal is multipoint FI, and all components associated. The only problems are isolating integrated wiring (from non related systems) and providing sensor hookups. It is very doable.
The use of a cat converter is primarily for pollution (but would reduce exhaust noise to below that from the standard muffler). In addition the cats are stainless steel, and thus simi-permanent.
Stochiometric mixtures are not clean. they are the most efficient in terms of combustion, and power production. The unburned hydrocarbons are abundant, and are exactly what is burned up in the catylitic converter. THanks for asking, keep in touch,
JimN

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