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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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M starter problems

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Glen E.

04-05-2005 12:23:18




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I just rebuilt the engine in my 45 M. I used 4" stepped head (TISCO) pistons and sleeves, new rings, bearings..... It started fine before I rebuilt it, but it had a cracked block (very long story). It does have a 8574 head on it. When I first tried to start it I could not get it to turn over with the starter. I pulled it, started fine, ran it about 20 minutes and retorqued the head. I went to NAPA and got a new 6 volt battery. I took the starter to a shop and had it went through. I rewired it per Bob's instructions. I have #1 gauge battery cables. When I try to start it turns over once, maybe twice and then stops. I left off the button, try it again and it does the same thing. I checked every connection I can think of, scraped them bare and still it won't turn over fast enough to start. Any suggestions?????

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JT

04-05-2005 18:25:55




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to Glen E., 04-05-2005 12:23:18  
To get more volts, you need bigger cables, my M has firecrater pistons,after the rebuild, would not run over good, rebuilt starter, new battery, had to go to a 1/0 cable, sure does turn over nice now. you can use 0 or 00, though, I had some 1/0 around, so that is what I used. Could also go to an 8 volt battery.



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randy hall

04-05-2005 18:10:38




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to Glen E., 04-05-2005 12:23:18  
If you are a real stickler, for six volts you can get high torque fields for your starter. This will cost just as much as buying a delco alternater. We have over a dozen of these tractors m's, super m's super mta's and 400's and 450's and the first thing that i do when one needs a new battery or quits charging is put a alternator on them. The original six volt starter will not start a real good high compressioned m. or if you like buying starter drives you could buy one of the old gear reduction starters.

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Bob M

04-05-2005 14:55:09




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to Glen E., 04-05-2005 12:23:18  
I had the same problem with my Super M. Previous owner had installed high compression head/pistons. Even with a rebuilt starter, new battery, heavy cables, etc it was marginal getting it to tip over on 6 volts. Often had to "rock" the engine with the starter - just as you describe - to get it to roll and start.

This was the impetus for my first 12 volt alternator conversion. The tractor's been starting reliably ever since (20+ years now).

A GM alternator tucks neatly up under the hood. You gotta get on your knees and peek under the hood to tell it's been switched.

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El Toro

04-05-2005 14:26:23




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to Glen E., 04-05-2005 12:23:18  
I think you should go with heavier battery cables
#0 or #00 as Dennis suggested. They'll make a big difference in cranking. Hal



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JOSSETTE

04-05-2005 13:16:45




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to Glen E., 04-05-2005 12:23:18  
disconnect both cables from battery...
disconnect the cable on the starter
disconnect the coil wire from distributor..
leave the plugs in
get some jumper cables and hook up 12 volt neg ground and see what she does

if she's better you might want to convert



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captaink

04-05-2005 12:44:40




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to Glen E., 04-05-2005 12:23:18  
When they rebuilt the starter, did they wire brush off the joints between the field housing (center part), the brush housing (end cap), the nose piece (part into the engine) and where the starter bolts to the housing? Sometimes these areas will rust and not offer perfect connection, and will result in poor starter performance. If you have a fully charged 6-volt battery, large cables, and clean connections it should start, but with the stepped pistons it will take considerably more power to do it.

Is originality a concern for you? If not, a 12-volt conversion might be something to consider.

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Glen E.

04-05-2005 12:49:17




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to captaink, 04-05-2005 12:44:40  
Everything is clean. Would the stepped head pistons and later model head be too much compression for the 6 volt? I took the plugs out and it spun it real well. So I know its wired right. I think I can hide a one wire GM alternator under the hood without too much trouble.



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captaink

04-05-2005 14:24:15




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to Glen E., 04-05-2005 12:49:17  
I know you can as I have done it several times. I use the original generator bracket, drill out the 5/16” holes to 3/8” and mount it back on the head upside down. I make a spacer out of ½” well pipe to move the alternator ahead to line up the belt. Then I buy a 3/8” bolt (about 9” long or so) long enough to reach through both arms of the bracket, the spacer and the alternator for the bottom mount. Then I modify the top generator brace as needed. I use the original generator belt, but I try to find a wider pulley the same diameter as the original on the alternator for better fit. On the 35 amp alternators I have left the GM pulley on and let the belt ride high, but on higher output alternators the belt might slip.

One more thing on the conversion. I usually get rid of the old starter button and hide a Ford fender mount style solenoid (has a 12-volt terminal that is hot when the solenoid is engaged) on the rear gas tank stand on the battery side. Right next to it, I mount the resistor to change the 12-volts to 6-volts for the coil. After running the power wire for the coil through the resistor, I take a wire from the 12-volt tap on the solenoid and run it to the coil side of the resistor so I have 12-volts on start and 6-volts on run.

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RustyFarmall

04-05-2005 12:31:17




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to Glen E., 04-05-2005 12:23:18  
First question, is the battery fully charged?



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Glen E.

04-05-2005 12:38:19




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to RustyFarmall, 04-05-2005 12:31:17  
Yep, new battery, had it on charger all night.



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P Backus

04-05-2005 16:46:02




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to Glen E., 04-05-2005 12:38:19  
We sure do have a lot of 12V fans on this forum. That's ok, but I've never really seen a reason to change to 12. Often when an engine is overhauled all the new bearings and sleeves and things are not polished and worn in yet. I've heard of a number of engines that the starters had trouble turning over. Maybe you would want to wait a bit until you get a few hours on that motor. Also make sure the ground path for the starter is clean.
Paul

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Dennis Gauge

04-05-2005 13:18:37




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 Re: M starter problems in reply to Glen E., 04-05-2005 12:38:19  
#1 battery cables. Too thin maybe? All the things I've read say #0 or #00.



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