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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Cummins In an M?

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RAW in IA

03-05-2005 17:48:18




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Did IH ever put ut an M with a Cummins engine? New one on me.




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Hugh MacKay

03-06-2005 18:04:16




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to RAW in IA, 03-05-2005 17:48:18  
RAW: Like some of the others, I've heard these stories of Cummins and Shepard diesels in M tractors. If you take yourself back to that time in history, farmers were wanting diesel, but at the same time were shying away from slow starting machines, ie, gas start and pup start. Cummins and Shepard knew IH weren't going to bring that British direct start M to the northern half of North America. They believed they had a better starting engine for cold winter climates. Cummins in particular has always been a builder of deisel engines. That precisely is their claim to fame. Probably put on quite a sales pitch to IH. I can remember those days, direct start diesel was wave of the future. If I had been Cummins in those days, seeing a manufacturer like IH, at that time leader in the farm equipment industry, I would have been trying to convince IH my diesel was their best option. Yes I can see a company like Cummins spending the money to do a dozen conversions. From Cummins point of view in the 1950s, Cat was the diesel competition not Deere.

I think both Cummins and Shepard made one mistake, the diesel they used didn't generate as much power as the IH gas or diesel engines being used at the time. Of course IH went on to develop some damn good, direct start diesels of their own, really didn't take a back seat to anyone except Cat.

And don't think for one minute Cat didn't have the same ideas. I've heard Cat's approach was wanting to buy out IH construction equipment and in turn build diesels for IH farm tractors and trucks. Truly Cat probably wanted the whole company. Of course number one to the power brokers on both sides was their own back pocket.

What you and I might like to have used on our farms was number two.

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Tom Graham

03-06-2005 16:14:17




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to RAW in IA, 03-05-2005 17:48:18  
I saw that ad too. All I can say is I have done some business with Nick, and he's a straight shooter in my book.



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Red Dave

03-06-2005 08:16:33




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to RAW in IA, 03-05-2005 17:48:18  
The link doesn't work, so I can't see it, but yes, I have seen a Cummins in an M. I've also seen a Sheppard Diesel in an M. I've heard about Detroits in an M too.
My understanding is that these were offered as aftermarket conversions in the '50's.

One old-timer I know joked that it was the fastest way to turn an M into an H. The knock on them was that they didn't have as much power as the original gas engine, but they ran a lot cheaper because diesel is more efficient than gasoline, and in the '50's & '60's diesel was a lot cheaper per gallon than gas.

At least that's what the guy who owns the M with the Sheppard told me.

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Paul in Mich

03-06-2005 06:40:24




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to RAW in IA, 03-05-2005 17:48:18  
Last year, I saw a Cummins conversion in a 450. Cummins may have built a conversion kit, but I doubt that IH ever installed them. There was also a British version of the MD (BMD), which had a completely different Diesel than the IH Diesel which started on gas and switched to diesel. I don"t know who made the British version. There may have also been a separate Australian Diesel M.



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John M

03-06-2005 06:55:01




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to Paul in Mich, 03-06-2005 06:40:24  
IH built that over there,why they didnt over here is not known.(or so I recall)



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Paul in Mich

03-06-2005 07:10:16




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to John M, 03-06-2005 06:55:01  
I too haven"t the foggiest. I have heard the the Diesel they installed in the BMD"s (British)was a good engine, but I do not speak from experience or with any authority.



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Hugh MacKay

03-06-2005 15:49:29




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to Paul in Mich, 03-06-2005 07:10:16  
Paul: The British diesel used by IH in the M was indeed an IH engine produced at Doncaster England. It really wasn't much different from our gas start. The block could have been the same or very close. Big difference was head, injection, glow plugs and starter. Large number of these were shipped into southern US. You've got to remember Super BMD production did not end until early 60s. IH then produced the B-450 until mid 60s. Both these tractors had factory 3 point hitch. The B-450 was same tractor as BMD, no TA or IPTO in these.

The reason we in the north never saw these tractors, is IH saw a disaster in the making. They shipped those B-250 and B-275 into Canada, little 144 cu in diesel engine and we couldn't start them from Oct. until May. I know one guy bought two of them, said it was good that he kept the SC to use as a pup start. Can you imagine M users putting up with something like that. These were far worse than glow plug engines used in 460 and 560.

However you look at the timimng on these, 460 and 560 came along about half way through the production of them. North American farmers were not warming up to diesel as quick as Europeans. Fuel was expensive in Europe. The big gassers had to go.

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colekicker

03-05-2005 22:56:09




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to RAW in IA, 03-05-2005 17:48:18  
Ok guys, you gotta remember all these conversions took place a long time ago. Remember the Sheppard Diesel. They made a conversion kit for an M also. I am pretty sure, yet I haven't found it in one of my IH books yet that Cummins had an engine kit out also. Just think about an 8N. The Funk conversion was not factory. At any rate, the numbers for the actual conversions were not all that high. It can be considered rare if you ask me.

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Mike S 806/H

03-05-2005 19:58:18




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to RAW in IA, 03-05-2005 17:48:18  
The only tractors that I know of is two 450's that cummins bought from IH with out engines and installed cummins engines. I guess the plan was to try to get IH to use cummins diesel engines. I know where one of these tractors is at.



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CNKS

03-05-2005 18:03:11




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to RAW in IA, 03-05-2005 17:48:18  
The only factory diesel in an M was the start on gas one. The only non-IH diesel in any US built tractor through about 1960 was the Continental diesel in the 350. That tractor is horribly over-priced.



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MAGMAN

03-05-2005 17:52:11




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to RAW in IA, 03-05-2005 17:48:18  
Well the first thing that catches my eye is the year of the motor the last M was made in the early 50s not the late 50s . CORRECT?



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Sloroll

03-06-2005 06:42:24




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to MAGMAN, 03-05-2005 17:52:11  
This tractor is on E-bay too. What caught my eye is how he behaved at critisism in his feed back. I was somewhat interested but not going to deal with the fellow. I didn't understand his line about he new what he would take and bidders would when the price got there. I didn't see a reserve so I assume he will pull the auction if things aren't going his way? The tractor I see by this add is priced out of my league anyway.

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Jonboy

03-05-2005 17:56:38




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to MAGMAN, 03-05-2005 17:52:11  
Correct, I think the very last super M's were made in 1953, then for 1954 the Farmall 400 replaced it.



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Jim Elder

03-05-2005 18:23:40




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to Jonboy, 03-05-2005 17:56:38  
The last Farmall M was 1952
In 1953 they came out with Super M
In 1954 they came out with Super M TA
In 1955 they came out with 400
In 1957 1958 they used the Continental
in the 350's



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CNKS

03-05-2005 18:40:44




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 Re: Cummins In an M? in reply to Jim Elder, 03-05-2005 18:23:40  
As long as we are in the "correction" mode, there were roughly 14000 Super M's produced in 1952, and the 400 appeared in late 1954.



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