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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Rough running M farmall Day 2

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dave w

03-18-2004 18:26:46




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Ok guys, Still missing in Cylinder # 2 Here is what I have done so far.
1. new plugs 2. New points
3. new condenser
4. Switched plugs between # 2 and #3 (no change to number @
5. Reversed spark plug wires bewteen #2 and # 3 (then both 2 and 3 missed) I then switched back
6. Switched Spark plug wires to see if # 2 would fire. No change
7. Replaced distributor cap. (no change)
8. Left # 2 spark plug out and grounded to engine. Had spark 9. I tool the valve cover off the the number on the head is 6336DD
10. Compression is 100 PSI
11. check Compression to day with out adding oil Compression is 100 psi OK guys here is where I need your help. After all I tried # 2 cylinder still missed. since I have spark and the plug is wet. Does that mean it has to be a valve? Or am I still looking over something. A gentle said it could be a carberator gasket. I have not tried that, but I think the plug must be getting fuel since the plug is wet.

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BULLDOG

03-19-2004 14:54:43




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 Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:26:46  
DAVE, I HAD 2 H'S AND A 400 WITH THE SAME PROBLEM.ALL OF THEM RECENTLY OVERHAULED. MY LIST OF TRIALS BECAME MUCH LONGER THAN YOURS SO FAR. IN SHORT I USED HOTTER PLUGS,INCREASED THE ENGINE TEMPERATURE, LEANED THE FUEL MIXTURE AND BY ALL MEANS USE A FUEL ADDITIVE. YOU SIMPLY MUST DO SOMETHING TO REPLACE THE LEAD IN TODAYS FUELS. MY 400 WAS MISSING TERRIBLY TILL I ADDED ABOUT 1/3 GALLON OF DIESEL FUEL TO THE TANK AND IN 15 MINUTES AT 1/2 THROTTLE IT CLEARED UP AND HAS RUN GREAT FOR THE LAST 3 MONTHS.

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49 Cubber!

03-19-2004 13:41:13




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 Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:26:46  
Had excat same problem on my H,did all the same things you did.Manifold gasket!If you got a little propane torch or some WD40 spray it around the manifold where it bolts to the head.of course if you use propane,dont lite the torch.Of course mine was a combitnation of WAY or of adjustment rockers and the gasket.Your problme could also be a bent rod,but I dought that.



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lee

03-19-2004 06:58:56




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 Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:26:46  
If you really think you have ignition I would go along with Wayne maybe a worn cam lobe. Compression check may not reveal. Cylinder may be filling at slow cranking speed but not at running speed. You could try a dynamic compression check (see below). Or pull the valve cover and measure the valve lift on good and bad cylinders. Inspect the valve rockers etc., closely. You can also look for intake manifold leak or crack at #2.

http://www.misterfixit.com/dyncompr.htm

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jed

03-19-2004 05:29:14




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 Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:26:46  
I would suspect alien intervention were I you.
From all that you have done there is no reason why it shouldn't run properly. Replace the wires you have gotten a junk set.



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Buddy

03-19-2004 05:03:44




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 Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:26:46  
You have a weak valve spring on one of the valves on No. 2. This lets you get good compression at cranking speed when you are checking compression, but when the tractor is at running RPM the valve is leaking and you are not getting full combustion. Make an air fitting to replace the spark plug to blow up the cylinder so you can remove the valve keepers without the valves dropping down. Usually you can rig the end off of your compression gauge to an air hose to do this. Add one or two maching washers under the valve springs of the right size to add to spring compression.

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Wayne Swenson

03-18-2004 21:36:38




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 Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:26:46  
Have you looked at the valve rocker arms with the engine running? Maybe a cam lobe is worn off not allowing one of the valves to open properly?



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riverbend

03-18-2004 19:12:14




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 Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:26:46  
Try hooking up an inductive timing light to your #2 spark plug wire and see that the flashes look uniform. That would rule out an ignition problem (as long as you have a good plug). The carb should affect all cylinders equally. If you have 100 psi, both valves are closing. Did you check to see that both valves on #2 were opening when you had the valve cover off ?



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CNKS

03-18-2004 19:09:45




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 Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:26:46  
You have a kerosene head. i'm surprised your compression is that good -- justin, on your web page, you list the C248 distillate compression as 96, is kerosene any different? Dave-- I'm kind of grasping at straws -- You have a distributer, that is unusual for a 41 -- do you have the point gap set at 0.020, I don't know why that would cause only one cylinder not to fire. You can't have a bad valve with that kind of compression. Have you adjusted the valves? -- 0.017 hot. It almost sounds as if the number 2 exhaust valve is not opening, but I really don't the symptoms for that problem, perhaps not enough air, and the fuel does not ignite. Anyway, it won't hurt to check your valve clearance.

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rustyfarmall

03-18-2004 23:27:27




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 Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to CNKS, 03-18-2004 19:09:45  
A distributor on a 41 is not unusual at all, true, it would have originally been equipped with a magneto, but just about all of these old Farmalls were changed over to distributor ignition when that technology became available. What is unusual today is finding a tractor that still has the original magneto.



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oklahomatractorrebuilder

03-19-2004 03:36:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to rustyfarmall, 03-18-2004 23:27:27  
We always remove the dist and replace with a mag, more reliable.



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justin

03-18-2004 21:05:02




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 Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to CNKS, 03-18-2004 19:09:45  
I don't have my spec book with me, as I am 600 miles from home at the moment, so I cannot recall if the kerosene head has a smaller combustion chamber than the distillate or not (If I remember tomorrow, I will physically check the difference in length of the valves). The common practice of putting high altitude pistons in the distillate/kero tractors can also be the factor that may be helping on compression, not to mention that every engine is different, and 4psi is a rather small amount..

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justin

03-18-2004 18:36:43




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 Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:26:46  
did you change the rotor when you changed the cap??



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dave w

03-18-2004 18:49:12




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 Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to justin, 03-18-2004 18:36:43  
No I did not. Could that make a diffence?



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JIM GREENE

03-18-2004 23:13:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:49:12  
DAVE- IN CONNJUNCTION TO REPLY: "RAY IN PA."- PLEASE CHECK OUT THE FOLLOWING TO LEARN MORE ABOUT CARBON RELATED ISSUES ON PG. #4-"CARBON ON TOP OF PISTON OF AN H"-JOHN.RE.-LEE,BUZZMAN,FRED,MIKE S.,CNKS,r4ETIRED, AND ANDY M. I FOUND THIS HELPFULL AND WILL APPLY IT TO MY SOOTY RUNNING CUB. AGAIN, JUST THOUGHT THIS MAY HELP YOU OUT. BEST OF LUCK! J.G.



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Ray in Pa.

03-18-2004 20:58:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:49:12  
I would remove distributor cap from distributor, and then slowly rotate engine by hand to have the cam in the distributor open the points fully, then check point gap setting. Now slowly rotate engine by hand so that the next cam lob opens the points, then check this point gap setting to see if its close to the first lobs point gap setting. Now repeat this with the last two lobs to see if all your lobs have close to the same point gap setting. This way you can rule out whether the cam and its lobs are faulty or not. Just be sure that when you rotate the engine by hand, that you rotate it in the same direction that it turns when running. Another thing to check for would be excessive carbon in spark plug hole. Carbon build up can get to the point where it will narrow the hole in the lower threaded section of the spark plug hole and could possibly cause miss firing. Excessive carbon in the combustion chamber can also cause a localized hot spot and miss firing. Generally though, this is usually rare and can sometimes be corrected with a good carbon cleaner additive added to the gasoline and run alittle.

Thanks, Ray in Pa.

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Steve in WPa

03-19-2004 03:11:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to Ray in Pa., 03-18-2004 20:58:01  
Not my experience, but rather an old codger friend of mine-when you rotate the distributer shaft, place an indicater on the farthest point and watch to see if your shaft is bent. Your indicaret could be a $150 Mitutoyo dial indicater or it could be a piece of steel that is placed such that you can detect any movement.

Best of luck--Steve



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Steve in WPa

03-22-2004 03:19:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day in reply to Steve in WPa, 03-19-2004 03:11:33  
I'd like to clarify what I wrote. If you set the gap on the points, rotate the shaft to the next lobe and check again. continue through all 4 lobes. A bent shaft will show a difference in the measurements depending on how much bend there is to the shaft. This might also show a lobe that is worn more than another. --Steve



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justin

03-18-2004 20:57:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:49:12  
On the M I had the same problem with earlier this week, a new cap and rotor was needed to get it running right. The condition of the rotor was probably the worst variable I dealt with, and this was the main root of my problem.



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Mr B

03-18-2004 20:40:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:49:12  
have you checked timing? you say you have spark at plug when grd. to motor, take a air nozzle and blow out cyl. when at top of comp. stroke, heat plug end to dry with torch and install, it has to fire.



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jim greene

03-18-2004 20:38:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to dave w, 03-18-2004 18:49:12  
DAVE- I'M STUCK ON THAT PLUG WIRE. DID YOU SAY YOU
HAVE REPLACED THE "ORIGINAL" #2 WIRE? IFSO, DISREGARD MY THOUGHT. [GOT THIS BUG BECAUSE I JUST READ THAT 6-VOLT SYSTEMS SHOULD USE COPPER CORE WIRES TO PREVENT POOR SPARK THAT ALSO COULD LEAD TO INCOMPLETE COMBUSTION AND CARBON BUILDUP IN THE HEAD]. THE ROTOR [NOT REPLACED ?] MIGHT BE THE BETTER PATH TO TAKE... TAKE IT FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH. GOOD LUCK TO YOU! JIM GREENE

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JIM GREENE

03-20-2004 22:49:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rough running M farmall Day 2 in reply to jim greene, 03-18-2004 20:38:50  
DAVE- DON'T LEAVE US HANGING. WHEN YOU HAVE TIME, PLEASE RESPOND WITH AN UPDATE WHEN YOUR NOT BUSY ON THE "M" OR WITH LIFE IN GENERAL. I'VE LEARNED A FEW THINGS AND THIS APPLIES TO OTHER MAKES AND MODELS. THANKS! JIM GREENE



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