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Straight pipe burns valves??????

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rustywallace2

07-01-2003 11:58:37

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Hi to anyone who can help me. I just got finished doing an engine overhaul on my 44 H, and I was thinking about putting a straight pipe on it. But my dad was telling me the it might burn up my exhaust valves. I just wanted a second opinion about it so could someone please help me.

Thanks RustyWallace2

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Terry

07-02-2003 20:14:57

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

Some truth to it burning valves. It can allow cool air to suck back far enough to warp the valve. Then the process of burning begins. Terry

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Jim

07-02-2003 12:34:30

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

A straight pipe should not harm the engine unless you put it inside the exhaust pipe coming out of the manifold. My father did this many years ago and burned the valves. My 2 cents.

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39M

07-02-2003 08:55:18

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

those old tractor manifolds and heads are flow restrictive enough to the point i doubt the engine would "know" if the muffler was there or not.

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Mike (MI)

07-02-2003 05:21:58

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

I have to jump in here once more regarding "warped" valves because of cold air getting to them. That is also a "wive's tale". Consider what happens when it's 0 degrees out, and you fire the engine up. The exhaust valves goes from being almost 0 degrees, to a few hundred degrees in just a few seconds. That doesn't warp it. After the engine has been run and is warm, there's no way you could get cold air to the valve anyway. I supposed it's possible that the engine could stop in the narrow window where the intake and exhaust valves are both slightly open, somehow allowing air to flow back through the carburator - but very unlikely. After the engine is warmed up, there's enough hot mass there to heat up any air that might somehow make it near the valve. Also, think of this condition in current fuel injected automotive engines: The fuel injector sprays fuel on the back of the intake valve because its hot and will vaporize fuel quickly. There's combustion tempratures on one side of the valve, and cold fuel being sprayed on the other side. Trust me - cold air isn't going to warp the exhaust valve. I work in a R&D engine dynamometer lab for Eaton Corp, who produces 80% of the poppet valves used world wide - we have never had a valve fail due to cold air. I will say, however, that it is hard on exhaust valves to go to full speed and load as soon as a cold engine fires up. The valve has to go from ambient temp. to around 1500 degrees F in just a few seconds. The thermal stess created will actually make the valve crack over many of these thermal cycles. Hope I haven't offended anyone. I'm just hoping everyone will dismiss the "warped valve" story as myth. I'll get off my soap box now.

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Terry

07-03-2003 08:55:49

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Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to Mike (MI), 07-02-2003 05:21:58

I don't think a straight pipe will cause the problem of warping or burning valves unless it is very short and the engine was being used to pull with. My experience is with car engines and headers that were used on them...for whatever reason back them (circa 1960's) it was easy for the header bolts to come loose and develope a header leak. During a hard run and immediately after letting off the gas pedal you would suck cool air through the leak. Valve heads would not handle the stress (shatter/pop off) and you would run the risk of dropping a valve or warping the valve. I say, it is possible. The straight stacks on these tractors are essentially no different than the mufflers but the muffler holds more heat and is less likely to allow cold air to get back all the way to the valve. I am glad you are so well educated.

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Steve - IN

07-02-2003 09:31:13

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Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to Mike (MI), 07-02-2003 05:21:58

1500 degrees! Wow... that's a hefty number for us guys accustomed to working with pre-emission control engines. Are your valves sodium filled, or using special coatings that were once considered "trick" and for racing applications?

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Mike (MI)

07-02-2003 10:47:08

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Re: Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to Steve - IN, 07-02-2003 09:31:13

Steve,

Only a slect few are NaK (sodium-potassium) filled. Actually, 1500 degF is a low number, believe it or not. Most of the new Chrysler engines are approaching 1700 degF at max HP! Hard to believe, I know. The alloy used in these valves is what has made us leaders in the valve industry. I couldn't begin to tell you what chemical composition they have, but I do know we've developed several of our own alloys used only in our valves. Some of the exhaust valves are Inconel - a very high grade stainless. It's hot tensil strength is the same as it is at room temp. Good stuff! Very expensive though - hard to work with. The valve stems are chrome plated, same as usual, but no other coatings are used.

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Steve - IN

07-02-2003 11:04:34

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Re: Re: Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to Mike (MI), 07-02-2003 10:47:08

Mike,
Thanks for the info. My experience with airplanes and track only cars with EGT gauges was 1450 max lean unless you "cheated" a bit with mega buck solutions like sodium filled or coatings like henium. If you guys are getting mass production quantities of valves that run 1500 to 1700 -- that's quite an accomplishement.

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Dr.EVIL

07-02-2003 10:26:04

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Re: Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to Steve - IN, 07-02-2003 09:31:13

The intakes of course run MUCH cooler but I read 20-30 yrs ago that exh. valves in a gasoline engine typically run red hot when working. The exh. valves are just made from a real good grade of high nickel steel, maybe a little cobalt & tungsten added as well. Actually, late model emission controlled engines run cooler than pre- emission controlled engines due to exh. gas recirculation, to "Cool the Burn" because Oxides of Nitrogen (NOX) production is much greater at high combustion temps.

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Bob Kerr

07-01-2003 21:47:44

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

Under some conditions like after very hard usage in very cold weather a striaght pipe can let cold air back in through the pipe to a valve that is part way open and warp it, but that is VERY rare. If you run an engine with a warped valve, it will burn out because the hot exhaust gas leaks past when it is at its hottest and the valve can't cool itself on the seat.If you have a warped valve you will know it by the way it runs, one cyl will be weak and it may pop funny when under load. As for a straight pipe used in summer, run it and forget it, but wear ear plugs! Just look at some of the old timers that are left who ran F-12/F14s F-20s/F30s, 10-20s, 15-36s. Those guys all have hearing aids now!

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Hugh MacKay

07-01-2003 19:29:48

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

I really can't see what all the fuss is on ear protection from these old letter series Farmalls. Put a lomg enough pipe on and it will hardly be noticable over the standard mufler.

Save the ear muffs for when your on the freeway, operating a 2 cycle Detroit Diesel, your lawn mower, chain saw, etc. I used to run blueberry harvesters, because of worker on behind you kept back window of cab open so to communicate with your helper. Several harvesters in same field. Nothing worse than those 40 to 50 hp 3 cylinder diesels (all makes) coming up behind you. I'd far sooner a 6 cylinder IH, Deere, etc.

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Harold Hubbard

07-02-2003 04:11:06

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Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 07-01-2003 19:29:48

Wear the ear protection anyway. I started out wearing earplugs very early, for chainsaws, the bulldozer, and the Farmall M, but I didn't wear them for the "little" tractors, the C and Super C. We always kept good mufflers on everything, but now I am beginning to lose some of my hearing. Loudness is only part of the story, exposure time is the other. Operating continuously, day in and day out, as you will in planting or haying, is definately long exposure, even with a relatively quiet tractor.

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Hugh MacKay

07-02-2003 04:58:43

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Re: Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to Harold Hubbard, 07-02-2003 04:11:06

I have probably logged somewhere between 40,000 to 50,000 hours on everything from a Super A to a 1066, Cat D7G, 400-500 hp highway tractors, chainsaws. etc. At 60 years of age my family tell me I hear things I shouldn't hear. I have never worn ear protection. And yes I briefly operated a 2 cycle Detroit 6-71, but not long. If mankind had been intended to listen to Detroit 2 cycles, freeway traffic and modern music he would have been born with ear muffs.

In my opinion hearing loss is somewhat genetic. You explain to me why old codgers back in the 40s and 50s were deaf as a post and never heard anything louder than a horse break wind in their lifetime.

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rustyfarmall

07-02-2003 05:14:31

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Re: Re: Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 07-02-2003 04:58:43

You are absolutely right Hugh, hearing loss is more genetic than anything else, extremely loud noises will damage your ears, but an H farmall with a straight pipe is not an example of extremely loud noise, I have an M with a 3inch diameter pipe, it is a bit irritating inside the shed, but once it is outside there is no problem.
I once put a straight pipe on an 856 I had, made sure it was as tall as the cab, and from inside the cab, I couldn't tell the differance from when I still had the muffler on it.

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Hugh MacKay

07-02-2003 09:13:21

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves???? in reply to rustyfarmall, 07-02-2003 05:14:31

rusty: Your absolutly right. I have Farmalls SA, 130 and 140; 130 has a 33" straight pipe, 140 has IH replacement mufler and SA has right now a little 18" mufler. Because pipe on SA is not above ear level it is the noisy one of the bunch. 20 years ago I had straight pipes on 1066 and 100 hp Deere. 1066 had ROPS cab, Deere just had canopy. As long as those pipes were above the roof line you couldn't notice the difference even without cab. You have a 3cylinder IH, Ford or Deere following behind you with back window of your cab open, worse that sitting on a chair on engine hood of 1066, while its cranking out its full 150 hp.

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Tom Coughlin

07-01-2003 17:09:50

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

I think mufflers were optional equipment on some Farmalls in the 40's.

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07-01-2003 20:01:38

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Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to Tom Coughlin, 07-01-2003 17:09:50

Can't say for all the letter series, but I know that the A, M, and MD all had the muffler listed as optional.

Mike

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rustyfarmall

07-01-2003 13:56:22

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

straight pipe all you want, if you really want it to talk to you, go with at least a 3 inch diameter pipe, and wear ear plugs and ear muffs.

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Steve - IN

07-01-2003 13:47:50

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

If Rusty Wallace was worried about burned valves at the end of 500 or 600 mile race -- he'd run mufflers in NASCAR, don't you think? Last I heard, they run straight pipes.

Heat burns valves. You make the exhaust valve run hot by runnning lean, having ignition timing way off, cam timing way off, or high compression / low octane combinations. More exhaust flow lets the heat flow away from the exhaust valve quicker. Make sense? Free flowing exhaust will give you more top end power at the expense of low end torque and will give you hearing problems over time.

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Dave_D

07-01-2003 13:34:10

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

I was once told it could possible suck cold air and hurt the valves. I know on alot of old aircraft of WWII had real short exausts and no mufflers for max power.

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bob

07-01-2003 15:09:41

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Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to Dave_D, 07-01-2003 13:34:10

I've heard that with real short pipes there is a possibility for the valves to warp after the motor is shut off, due to an open valve cooling too quickly. That said, I've never had it happen but guess it could, and I've run a few engines with a pretty short pipe on the manifold. Throw a cap over the pipe immediately after you shut it off and you'll be fine.

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Jon

07-01-2003 13:23:23

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

I would recommend getting a stock muffler for no other reason than keeping with original equipment specs.

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Mike (MI)

07-01-2003 12:30:37

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Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to rustywallace2, 07-01-2003 11:58:37

rustywallace2,

Straight pipe all you want. It won't hurt a thing. That's just a "wive's tale". The less back pressure the better. Just wear ear protection, as it is very damaging to your hearing. Have fun.

Mike (MI)

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Bob

07-01-2003 15:09:21

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Re: Re: straight pipe burns valves?????? in reply to Mike (MI), 07-01-2003 12:30:37

Bravo, Mike! It's nice to see some of the tired old crap being de-bunked for a change!

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