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Farmall M-four bottom?

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Jess

10-30-2001 18:01:44

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I have a 1946 M and it has had a M&W overhaul kit istalled and it has unbelievable power. I was wondering if it was out of the question to pull 4-14's with it?

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Dale13

10-31-2001 11:04:03

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Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Jess, 10-30-2001 18:01:44

Plowed with a M and 4-14s for years,no problems. Horsepower was closer to 70. We never had anything go wrong with the rearend.This tractor is still going strong,just detuned a little to run regular pump gas. We always ran Hy octane till the ninties.

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Denny Frisk

10-31-2001 05:42:02

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Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Jess, 10-30-2001 18:01:44

The "M" rearend was as per Kenny Updike's 1955-1985 Numbered Series book marginal for use stock in some applcations. Increasing displacement and compression put more load on an already adaquately stressed transmission and final drive. For short duration You would probably not have a problem, but for long term use I'd stick with 3-14's or 3-16'd and run in 3rd or 4th. The life expectancy of a drivetrain decreases DRASTICALLY when It's over-loaded like that. Double the torque going thru the drivetrain and life expectancy falls to about of TENTH of design life.

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Ralph

10-31-2001 06:34:59

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Re: Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Denny Frisk, 10-31-2001 05:42:02

Hi Denny: You make a good point about overstressing the drivetrain but some of these M's have been working 50-60 years without major rearend problems. I'll guess it's abusive drivers quite often. I've seen some just beat the He** out of whatever they'er driving. Anyway, another point is I don't think running 50HP through the drivetrain in 3ed or 4th would make so much easier than using that same 50HP in 2ed?? 50HP either way. If ya hit a stone the shock will still be to a drivetrain that's under a 50HP load. Only sure way would be to reduce power back to closer to stock 40HP?? Not downgrading anyone, just wondering about stress using 50HP nomatter the gear vs reducing to 40HP. Abusive driving is a second issue. Take care. have fun. ralph

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Denny Frisk

10-31-2001 09:57:01

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Re: Re: Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Ralph, 10-31-2001 06:34:59

Ralph - It's all about torque and the loads that torque puts on the shafts & bearings at right angles to the centerlines of the shafts. Einstein's theory of relativity says something about equal & opposite forces & reactions seems appropriate here. 2nd gear in an M is about 3-1/2 MPH, 3rd is about 4-1/2, and 4th is about 5-1/2. So if You take 50 HP full load in second as the baseline load, since Your still only making 50 HP, but faster speed in 3rd, the torque going thru the transmission in 3rd is only about 78% of what it was in 2nd. If You go to 4th, it's only about 64%. HP is nothing more than torque or force times speed. There's other factors involved, like as You shift up higher thru the gears of an M, the mating gears get closer to the pilot bearing between the constant mesh gears and the sliding gear shaft, and that pilot bearing IS a weak spot in the M's, but the reason it's located next to 4th gear is because the force on it is WAY less than if 1st gear was located there. The pilot bearings were increased in size in the Super Series. I've pulled 4-14's with a Super M-TA in 2nd. And Dad's '51 M would outpull the M-TA every day, so Yes, an M will pull 4-14's but it would be better off pulling 3-14's or 3-16's faster. To pull 4-14's would require more ballast to reduce slippage, and all kinds of other expenses. There's NO WAY any machine can withstand an operator determined to tear-up the equipment He's operating. Same goes for hitting rocks when plowing or ???. Didn't have any rocks where I grew up. In fact, I could never even find any arrowheads! even whan I was looking for them when I was cultivating.

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Ralph

10-31-2001 17:35:32

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Denny Frisk, 10-31-2001 09:57:01

Thanks Denny: ..but you left out the lowest gear, 1st gear. Your saying that if one would put it in the lowest gear and apply 50HP it would have the highest chance of failing due to 50HP? At the tractor pulls I see stock M's pulling their hardest in 1st gear. Many of these "stock" M's are peped up stock pulling close to 50HP. Non stock run much higher than 50HP. I don't see many busted drivetrains. Granted there are limits to how much extra power is too much. I'll guess that snapping a clutch or hitting lots of stones while plowing would break something sooner with the extra power than keeping it at original stock 40HP or so. Back to the original question I'll still say that 4-14's would be OK if he uses reasonable care. Most likely he is not plowing hundreds of acres full time. And again if his soil is lighter, you may be way too conserned. There is a potato growing area 40 miles from me that is sandy-peat soil. A piece of cake for 4-14's.(no clay) ralph

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Denny Frisk

10-31-2001 19:27:56

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Ralph, 10-31-2001 17:35:32

Yup, Low gear at about 2-1/2 MPH will have about 140% of the torque that 2nd gear would have in the final drives. I've seen LOTS of stuff break at tractor pulls, everything from blown tires, broken wheel hubs, twisted shafts and stripped gears But Yes, I've pulled M's & H's as hard as they would go in Low gear, and they're still running. Low is located as far away from the pilot bearing as they could put them in the transmission. For a good reason. Look at S-E Mich. Part-Timer's post, He's broken a pilot bearing off. Yes, it's harder on the pilot bearing to run in 4th than 2nd, but if You go trying to plowing up rocks with an IHC #8 you'll tear the plow up LONG before you blow up the transmission in the M. Want to hear the story about the M that had the head shaved .125" instead of .030" to raise compression? Tractor would NOT pull down with 3-14's. Only M crankshaft I ever saw broke clean into 2 pieces! I worked for the guy that owned the tractor and saw the crankshaft. Only time I ever heard of that happening! Dad's '51 M has the big M&W sleeves & pistons in it and We always plowed with it in 3rd in sod & 4th in corn stalks without a problem. There's a reason why Fuller, now called Eaton puts the driving gear between 2 driven gears in the big truck transmissions, to equalize the bending forces that cause the pilot bearings to snap off. You can get by with most things for a while, but you lean on the equipment too long and somethings going to break! In sandy soil or light peat ground 4-14's may be O-K for an M. But I still say 3-14's a gear higher would stress the rear end and transmission less and still get as much ground plowed.

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opps on double posts

10-31-2001 17:57:24

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Ralph, 10-31-2001 17:35:32

sorry about that.. musta been the trick or treaters "double tricked me" tonight. R.

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Ralph

10-31-2001 17:35:22

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Denny Frisk, 10-31-2001 09:57:01

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Haas

10-31-2001 13:20:33

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Denny Frisk, 10-31-2001 09:57:01

Good reply, but it was Newton, not Einstein and I believe that is Newton's second law, not the theory of relativity.

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Denny Frisk

10-31-2001 13:34:35

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Haas, 10-31-2001 13:20:33

I guess that's why I was a Geography Major in College.... Science History I have a problem with. Simple gearing like these old Farmalls I do understand. Thanks for clearing up my Mis-information.

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gene b

10-31-2001 05:37:12

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Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Jess, 10-30-2001 18:01:44

it depends on your type of soil i would borrow one to use before buying one depending where you live they will be hard to find here in IOWA no-till has taken over moldboard plows arent as easy to find as they were 10yrs ago better find a good one and set your wheels and hitch on the plow correct makes a big difference

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Ralph

10-30-2001 18:18:29

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Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Jess, 10-30-2001 18:01:44

Jess: You said it has "unbelievable" power so why not if you also have traction\weigth. I've seen M's dyno out at almost 50HP. Second gear was considered plow gear back then. Your soil condition will make or break 4-14's test. 3-16 would be another option. Have fun trying. R.

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S-E Michigan Part Timer

10-31-2001 10:12:05

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Re: Re: Farmall M-four bottom? in reply to Ralph, 10-30-2001 18:18:29

I hope you take this warning with a grain of salt. I have a '51 M with M & W pistons and lots of power like you and the others are talking about. I found out first hand that even with all that power, she has a weak spot like most of our toys. That is... 4th gear rides on the very end of the pilot shaft. The deflection of the gear mesh broke the end off with the roller bearing that rides inside the input shaft (think that's the name)... So, a boy of 18 years of age got a lesson in 40-some year old Farmall transmissions the hard way. My uncle has farmed all his life and has had to put in a few of these for this reason.

I lucked out.. I went up to Central Tractor in St. Johns.. It seems they couldn't find the book with the price for the shaft in it. So, he asked "how's $20 sound"? Needless to say, I didn't argue.

But they others are right about durablity. That was the first time mine has been taken apart. Seems like it was in '92, so around 41 years of dedicated service.

Bottom line... If you're giving her a good workout, just keep it in 3rd and save the hassle of finding a new pilot shaft!

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