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Lead substitute
:

use it or not.

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gibby

02-26-2001 12:58:13




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Should I use a lead subsitute or not in my Farmall 300.




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lee

02-28-2001 08:41:31




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 Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to gibby, 02-26-2001 12:58:13  
I think you're on the right TRAC-tor vet. Whatever you say, I'll believe. You seem to have done some homework on this one. One key consideration here
may be severity of use. If it's a putt at the show, burn whatever you want. If it's a heavy service machine or modified tractor use premium. If you really want to close the issue, put hard seats in at the next valve job.



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the tractor vet

02-28-2001 20:29:33




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 Re: Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to lee, 02-28-2001 08:41:31  
We tried that ,the C221 thru C301 came with the stelite valves and seats from the factory and buy the owners maniual it says to use a min. of 93 octaine on them ,the one 706 that ate a exhust valve every time the man ground feed drove me and the machine shop crazy we tryed everything it never burnt the same valve ,you could stand next to the tractor and about half way thru grinding corn you would see a littel pice of valve come out the stackand the miss would start ,back to the shop and start all over again could not nail it down till i came across a orignal owener maniual and started reading it and i found what it recomened for fuel and that is when we found that his fuel hauler was not cleaning his tank and hose out between loads of gas and diesel .He dumped 100 gallons of diesel in 500 gallons of gas when we had it anilized the test showed just how hot fuel can burn it willmelt pistons and torch a stelite valve like a cutting torch. Last fall i threw the old parts out in the scrap i should have taken pictures of the damage. now one gentalman does not agree with me but that is all wright i am just stating what workes with me and my customers and if my years of working on equipment can help one person save a couple of bucks fine . I learned alot when i was racen ford in the ford drag club and since i was the head mechanic i hated when we had a problem i had to know what cause it and what can we do to stop it from happening again got a chance to work with some mighty fine people with some good heads on there shoulders ,so when i see something in an engine i can tell what caused it.

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Dirttracker

02-27-2001 19:59:58




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 Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to gibby, 02-26-2001 12:58:13  
Hi Gibby. If you have stellite valve seats the lead substitute isn't necessary, it is also a lubricant for valve stems and a spark knock suppressor which isn't needed in a low compression engine. Also higher octane gasoline doesn't benefit much if any without higher compression, much like high performance engines of any kind including methanol which is very high octane allowing compression ratio's up to 15 to 16 to 1. The low octane gas burns fast and hot and the higher octane gas is slower burning and cooler, thus allowing or needing more compression to make more horsepower. Low octane gas in a high compression engine will spark knock violently usually breaking pistons or burning the tops out of them. If the valve seats are cast iron or steel then lead substitute would be a good investment, if they are stellite just use an top lube such a Marvel Mystery oil.

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Bama Binder

02-27-2001 05:41:35




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 Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to gibby, 02-26-2001 12:58:13  
Generally I don't think it really makes much difference....the lead substitutes are just lubricants of different types. I think it does help in one regard...I have a Cub that had 3 stuck valves. After freeing them, I ran it with the lead substitutes for a while and I think the extra lube helps to keep them free...Just my opinion.

Come to think of it, my Super H could probably use some...BB



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Daryl Maki

06-22-2004 16:12:08




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 Re: Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to Bama Binder, 02-27-2001 05:41:35  
Hey Anybody know what type , weight of lubricants to use in a farmall cub touch control???? Thanks Daryl



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mel

02-27-2001 04:57:22




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 Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to gibby, 02-26-2001 12:58:13  
I don't know but I use 93 octane in the H and I add a little lead additive. I know the 93 octane burns slower and I havn't had any problems.



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mel

02-27-2001 04:57:12




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 Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to gibby, 02-26-2001 12:58:13  
I don't know but I use 93 octane in the H and I add a little lead additive. I know the 93 octane burns slower and I havn't had any problems.



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the tractor vet

02-26-2001 17:56:28




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 Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to gibby, 02-26-2001 12:58:13  
I have found that your tractor will run a lot better on the 93 octain and no lead substute we have been the route with this on my customers tractors with the 87 and 89 octain fuels now that they are all running the 93 i change less plugs and go longer between tune up good for them not good for me but i have happy people out there. WE even tryed the SEN PECO LEAD and had a lab test it at some greate expenceand found that it did not have enough lead in it to write your name and all of this for the mer price of 8.50 a quart yea wright go figure ,don't take a degree in rocket sicence.

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'Bandit'

02-26-2001 18:32:03




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 Re: Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to the tractor vet, 02-26-2001 17:56:28  
Those tractors are meant to run on lower octane fuel with lead. Thats a good way to burn up the valves over time.



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the tractor vet

02-26-2001 19:17:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to 'Bandit', 02-26-2001 18:32:03  
I don't think so but i could be wrong ,i have two S/MTA's on one farm that does all the work like plowen discen planten hauling the manuer grinding feed they do it all on a 200 acre farm now for the past 16 years on one and the past 7years on the other an other S/MTA on another farm does not do the heavy work but does the chore work and we do not have any problems and the 460's 560's and 706's that i service have no problems .If you would know your fuels then you would know that 87 octain gas burns hotter then 93 octain that is why they want you to burn it in your cars and trucks 93 burns longer you get better fuel milage and more power out of a longer burn . Ofcourse i do not know to much i only fix tractors and spent some time building hi performance engines that ran better then other peoples. In the 40 years that i have been twisten wrenches i have only lost two engines , not a vary good track record.

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dick

02-27-2001 07:47:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to the tractor vet, 02-26-2001 19:17:17  
Actually, I think you've got it partially backwards. The higher octane fuels contain more of the lighter components in crude oil and fewer of the heavier components. The lighter components tend to ignite at lower compression ratios than the heavier components (such as iso-octane), which make them unsuitable for use in high-compression, high-performance engines where they ignite prematurely causing engine knocking. Most if not all antique tractor engines have LOW compression engines, which don't require high-octane gasoline to prevent knocking - I believe many of these engines were originally designed by IH to use gasoline with octane ratings as low as 70.

However, the heavier components in higher octane gasoline generally will contain a higher carbon-to-hydrogen content ratio than that in lower octane gasoline. Carbon generally will produce more heat when burnt than hydrogen will, so the higher octane fuels should burn a bit HOTTER than the lower octane fuels, although probably not all that much. Plug fouling tends to be reduced by hotter plugs, or activities which produce more heat in the engine (such as plowing), and thus your observation of less plug fouling when using higher octane fuel is consistent with the higher octane fuel burning hotter than lower octane gasoline, and not the other way around.

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THE TRACTOR VET

02-27-2001 18:57:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to dick, 02-27-2001 07:47:07  
THAT IS NOT WHAT THE LAB IN COLUMBUS OHIO TOLD US AFTER SPENDING 750 BUCK THERE TO FIND OUT WHY WE WERE HAVEING SO MUCH TROUBLE WITH THE GAS TRACTORS IN THE AREA, LIKE BURNT VALAES IN THE C 221 THRU C301 PLUG FOULING IN THE M'S THRU 450's. AFTER TALKING TO THEM HE EXPLAINED THAT THE NEW GAS OF 87 AND 89 OCTAIN BURNS EXSTREAMLY HOTTER AT THE 90TO 100PERCENTOF THE BURN .i HAVE IT ALL IN BLACK AND WHITE A 6 PAGE REPORT FROM THEM. WE ALSO HAD FUEL CHECKED THAT I THOUGHT WAS CONTAMENATED IT WAS WITH 25% diesel in gas did a good job on a fresh overhaul. The gas of today is not the same as 25 years ago or more you can thank te EPA for all your fuel related problem with old tractors and they don't care. Now maybe we are wasteing money buy running the good stuff but it works for us and like i said it saves them money,and i would rather have happy coustermers then them yelling at me for spending there money on parts and labor that they don't have. Now if that is not good enough then put your donkey in your car or truck and come on over and talk to the people that are useing it I do not claim to be a rocket sciencetest or a chemical eng. But i know what i see in an engine and how to get the most out of one.

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dick

02-28-2001 16:05:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to THE TRACTOR VET, 02-27-2001 18:57:38  
Have to say that I feel that your posting doesn't really merit a response because of its tone - which really isn't appropriate for this forum.

Too bad - we both might have ended up learning something.



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THE TRACTOR VET

02-27-2001 18:54:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to dick, 02-27-2001 07:47:07  
THAT IS NOT WHAT THE LAB IN COLUMBUS OHIO TOLD US AFTER SPENDING 750 BUCK THERE TO FIND OUT WHY WE WERE HAVEING SO MUCH TROUBLE WITH THE GAS TRACTORS IN THE AREA, LIKE BURNT VALAES IN THE C 221 THRU C301 PLUG FOULING IN THE M'S THRU 450's. AFTER TALKING TO THEM HE EXPLAINED THAT THE NEW GAS OF 87 AND 89 OCTAIN BURNS EXSTREAMLY HOTTER AT THE 90TO 100PERCENTOF THE BURN .i HAVE IT ALL IN BLACK AND WHITE A 6 PAGE REPORT FROM THEM. WE ALSO HAD FUEL CHECKED THAT I THOUGHT WAS CONTAMENATED IT WAS WITH 25% diesel in gas did a good job on a fresh overhaul. The gas of today is not the same as 25 years ago or more you can thank te EPA for all your fuel related problem with old tractors and they don't care. Now maybe we are wasteing money buy running the good stuff but it works for us and like i said it saves them money,and i would rather have happy coustermers then them yelling at me for spending there money on parts and labor that they don't have. Now if that is not good enough then put your donkey in your car or truck and come on over and talk to the people that are useing it I do not claim to be a rocket sciencetest or a chemical eng. But i know what i see in an engine and how to get the most out of one.

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Keith B

02-27-2001 05:21:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to the tractor vet, 02-26-2001 19:17:17  
I was told that higher octane fuels burned more evenly, I guess that makes sense with what the vet just said. The 93 octane burns longer at a lower temp. Somebody let me know if I have it all confused. (Which wouldn't suprise me!)



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lee

02-26-2001 14:52:29




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 Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to gibby, 02-26-2001 12:58:13  
Given the slow speeds these motors run and the light valve spring pressures used they'll out
last most of us without the lead.



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The Red

02-26-2001 13:27:26




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 Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to gibby, 02-26-2001 12:58:13  
You will get pros and cons. I have run my Farmalls with no lead for 11 years with no problems. If you want additional lubrication for the valves, you can mix in Marvel Mystery Oil with the gas without polluting the air with lead.



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MWKellner

02-27-2001 11:00:32




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 Re: Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to The Red, 02-26-2001 13:27:26  
Hey "The Red" how much or at what ratio do you mix Marvel Mystery Oil? I had a friend swear by that stuff in his ATV's and generators. What about Sta-Bil stabilizer, does it have any adverse effects on engines? What about the combination of both? My dad's tractor is run infrequently and I don't want the gas to go bad in it (did that already with a boat). Y'all let me know. Thanks -- Martin

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Wardner

02-26-2001 15:16:50




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 Re: Re: Lead substitute - use it or not. in reply to The Red, 02-26-2001 13:27:26  
Red, I believe that most, if not all, lead substitutes are lead free. In other words they contain no tetra-ethel lead. For more information on vehicle operation using unleaded fuel click below.



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