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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Undercarriage questions?

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135 Fan

03-16-2008 21:47:32




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How much difference does new undercarriage make in the operation of the machine? Do bad tracks slow it down? I have a Cat 931B with a quick attach hoe on the back. My undercarriage is worn and a lot of pads are loose. The track has come off a few times so I've tightened it tighter than recommended. I had to weld the split master link on one side because it was stripped and also one link was broke. Should I just use it till it is completely worn out or would replacing everything give me better performance. I think my idlers are still OK and my top carriers are a little worn but not bad. Sprockets aren't bad but I'd replace with new rails. Is sealed and lubricated track worth the extra money on my machine? Track pads are good. I'd have to grind the weld off on the one welded to the master link but not a big deal. I've heard that the rollers can be reshelled? Do I need to do anything with the idlers if I reuse them? I thought I heard idlers will last longer than the rollers? Thanks for your advice. Dave

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CHinNY

03-19-2008 07:37:16




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 Re: Undercarriage questions? in reply to 135 Fan, 03-16-2008 21:47:32  
I have new sealed chains at $885. each Lubed at $1185 each Single flange rollers at $110. each Doulbes at $115 each if i can help email for contact info



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Case450

03-17-2008 17:45:18




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 Re: Undercarriage questions? in reply to 135 Fan, 03-16-2008 21:47:32  
I replaced the entire undercarriage on my 450 for $4000 Canadian (labour in). Sprockets, rollers, chains, and shims, front idlers were still useable, and the rails were good. Everything was rebuildable, but cheaper to replace. All the parts came from Berco and I did the labour myself. I'm not familiar with yoru machine, might be cheaper to rebuild, but it sounds like a lot of work. Did you check Berco for pricing? Good Luck!

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135 Fan

03-17-2008 18:26:03




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 Re: Undercarriage questions? in reply to Case450, 03-17-2008 17:45:18  
I did about a year and a half ago. Berco rollers were a little cheaper but still over $200 a piece (10 rollers, single and double flange). Rails from the JD dealer were cheaper than Berco though. About $1300 a side if I remember right for standard rails. Salt was a couple hundred more per side and I think sprockets were over $300 each. My machine is probably closer to a 550 Case or 450 JD. My tracks now work but will snake all over the place. I have a new engine and the machine has about 5000 original hours according to the hour meter and the overall condition of the machine. I was thinking since I already have a lot of money in the machine, and it works good, new tracks would make it run even better. I think the tracks are the original as they are Cat. Dave

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MSM

03-17-2008 07:57:47




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 Re: Undercarriage questions? in reply to 135 Fan, 03-16-2008 21:47:32  
You might as well grin and bear it and replace the undercarriage. When you try to mix worn rollers,idlers and sprocket segments with a new rail all you do is accelerate wear on everything.Then 5-600 hours later you are replacing the worn parts,that you didn't do the first time.And now you are running new rollers on a worn chain. The idlers can be built up, the rollers reshelled,and if the pads aren't too thin new grouser bars can be welded on and replace the sprocket segments.Replace the idler wear strips,align the idlers,get everything back square or the new parts will wear out quickly.

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PD Mechanical

03-17-2008 08:24:11




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 Re: Undercarriage questions? in reply to MSM, 03-17-2008 07:57:47  
I agree with MSM. The rollers can be re-shelled, although sometimes with the price of aftermarket it's not worth it. Idlers can be built up but the internal parts will determine if it's worth the effort. Sealed chains are good if you're working in the salt or sand. But for most applications I don't believe it's necessary. As a rule of thumb with all new U/C you should get 2 sets of sprockets and 2 sets of pin & bushings out of a set of chains rollers and front idlers. (Thats without turning them) If you turn them you'll only get 1 set of pin and bushings out of the rest. I'm not a fan of turning pins and bushings. Feel free to contact me directly for more information and be sure to check out our website at www.pdmechanical.com

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Billy NY

03-17-2008 07:28:09




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 Re: Undercarriage questions? in reply to 135 Fan, 03-16-2008 21:47:32  
I think it is smart to assess the U/C components, when a machine is first bought, and pay close attention to what has worn or is getting close to exceeding acceptable wear limits at that time, as well monitoring wear while it is in use, affording you some time to decide whether a pin and bushing turn or other similar repair work is feasible, the trade off being more service life of the U/C.

There are probably several different scenarios where components that have been worn in relation to other components that are not worn out, may be worth doing some repair work, replacing or building up of components, before it is allowed to go too far, where you might as well run it to destruction.

There are some things that will accelerate wear, like the track tension being too tight, machine is kept running on worn components, say the pins/bushings are worn, still ok internally with some wear, but they are not turned, they will eventually ride up out of the root of the sprocket teeth and up closer to the point, pitch changes and the wear is accelerated to the sprocket, and many times when a sprocket might be worn above the root, getting the pitch back, byt turning the pins/bushings or replacing will put the P/B back in the root and the sprocket most likely is ok to use as the wear when higher on the tooth is not where P/B rides anyway once the pitch is correct again. Lot of variables with this. Say the rails are worn, pins bosses are hitting the roller flanges making for a bumpy ride and accelerated wear, time to deal with it or cut the roller flanges off and run to destruction, you will get some time from doing this, but at the end everything will be worn out.

It's nice when you can monitor U/C from new, or when a machine is new, always affording time to decide what to do, planning ahead to do the work needed at wear intervals to avoid accelerated wear and keep costs down, until you have actually worn out the tracks after getting max service life, vs just run it until it breaks mentality which may not get you the max service life.

You should assess what you have, and see what it will take to get you some extended service life, you already need pins, bushings and links, possibly sprocket segments or sprockets, (not familiar with that tractor), track pads being good, you need new bolts and can re-fasten your pads to the top of the new links (making sure there is no paint between pads and links when doing so or they will loosen up), you need to measure all bottom rollers, idler and carrier rollers to see where they are at on wear, running like it is will most likely accelerate wear rates to them, but if they are also well worn, it could be time to run to destruction. Excessive tension on that track to keep it on, I would suspect as being the worst thing and would want to deal with that before doing any work with the machine. I am not sure what kind of problems could be associated, but overly tight tracks will cause rapid wear, who knows if it will magnify any shock loads to the finals or track frames. ALso make note of any odd wear or things that point to the track frames being mis aligned, another wear rate accelerator.

I'm not an U/C expert by any means and maybe not all would agree with the above, (mostly from observation as an operator) but I have seen and experienced enough to at least have a good understanding, I think :) ! I have seen and been on D8K's run til destruction, we had a Fiat Allis FD30 slipping the track on the sprockets, but the U/c was not completely shot, have brought same 8K's to CAT for complete U/C's remember bringing the 977L in there for U/C work too, caught it in plenty of time. Have run D5's and D6D's with new U/C's to ones almost completely worn out. Some outfits doing landfill closure jobs I've been on would run their D6 hi tracks until they flung the track pads off, 3rd gear both ways doing max production work in high gear with operators just hammering the tractors certainly increased the wear rates. On sub division jobs, using the small grading tractors D3, D4 sizes, some of the guys would really pride themselves on how fast they wore out a set of tracks, doing finish work working in tighter areas with lots of turning or slopes. Soil types, poor operator habits, lack of maintainence, also play a significant role in wear rates. Some operators and types of work are really hard on U/C's like sand or rock. I used to set up for a nice K pattern when loading trucks from a pile with crawler loader, to minimize the wear from sharp turning, assuming it was good practice to work like that, loading for awhile from one side then switching the other.

I would think that if you were to put a new U/C on that machine those CAT sealed and lubed track chains would be worth it, but not so if you don't plan on starting over with new or built up components to get everything close to new, you are close to running to destruction now, you probably don't want to mix new expensive components with older worn or close to worn out ones. It's never easy, especially for a small operator, I can remember the bills for the work done on those 8K's at CAT, never less than $30,000 and that was over 15 years, can't imagine what it would be today.


Rails can be built up, but if your pins and bushings are worn internally, might be feasible to get the entire track chain, with rollers itused to be prevalent to build them up, not exactly sure about the details, you can't overheat the innards, there was machine equipment that would keep them cool, have seen where people immerse 1/2 of the roller while welding, idlers can be built up, you would have to talk to someone who runs or has experience in a track shop, building up components may be possible, but unless you do it yourself it may be cost prohibitive.

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bob plumadore

03-17-2008 05:46:27




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 Re: Undercarriage questions? in reply to 135 Fan, 03-16-2008 21:47:32  
I would go with the salt tracks, rehull the rollers and buildup the idler hull with weld to standard. A good undercarriage make an old machine perfome a lot better and faster.



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JFoshee

03-17-2008 03:10:27




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 Re: Undercarriage questions? in reply to 135 Fan, 03-16-2008 21:47:32  
I can"t give an answer for all your questions, but I can tell you what I"ve experienced. SALT tracks VS. Standard Sealed tracks. In my opinion I like the sealed and lubricated, but I know that when it comes time to turn the pin and bushings the life will be shortened on the pins because once they are torn apart dirt gets between the pin and bushing and they are no better than sealed tracks. Rollers can be rebuilt, or at least could about 10 years ago, but even then it was cheaper to replace lower rollers than rebuild them. Front idlers could be rebuilt for less money than new, but like with the SALT tracks once you tear them apart it"s hard to get them put back together without getting dirt in there. Front idlers were usually just run until they started cutting into the track frame then replaced. Yes, usually your idlers will last longer than your rollers, but it somewhat depends on operating conditions.

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