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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Question for jdemaris

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BJ

04-03-2004 08:05:42




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I read your reply to a post about excessive blowby. You mentioned the the JD350's were prone to top ring breakage. My 350 had exactly that #1 piston top ring broken in eight pieces. I also noticed scoring on all the piston skirts. The cylinders were worn and seemed excessive for the condition of the bearings - they all still had dull gray babbit. I just chalked it up to over use of ether and cylinder wash down. Is there something else that causes top ring breakage in these engines?

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BJ

04-05-2004 06:28:45




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 Re: Question for jdemaris in reply to BJ, 04-03-2004 08:05:42  
Thanks for all the input. It seems like the aftermarket piston makers would supply keystone rings - but I guess the design is too old to go back and redesign for the few sales they have. I guess the best thing to do is stay away from ether and not lug the engine. Thanks guys once again.



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jdemaris

04-03-2004 14:38:11




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 Re: Question for jdemaris in reply to BJ, 04-03-2004 08:05:42  
I guess the answer is, I don't know for sure. I DO know of certain things that WILL cause the rings to break, but there may be other factors besides. The 350 series through the "C" series uses square cut rings. If the piston ring grooves get a little loose, basically anything over .003" side clearance, the rings slap back and forth, cause blowby, and eventually shatter. Also, even with unworn pistons, ether tends to break the top rings. The later engines, as used in the 350Ds and on up through the 400G used a slightly bigger bore and Keystone style rings which are wedge-shaped. As I understand it, gas pressure tightens them, they don't slop around, and are much less prone to breakage. The 450s, starting with the "B" series as I recall, used the Keystone rings and they held up much better than the 350s. Another factor, though, is that 350s are somewhat underpowered and get lugged a lot. I don't know if that directly affects the rings, or just tends to make the pistons and sleeves wear out faster. So, when the 350Ds came out with 179 cubic inches instead of 152, they had Keystone rings and also had a little more torque and horsepower. If you plan to reuse your pistons, make sure the side clearance on the top rings does not exceed .003". If it does, but the skirts seem okay, you can buy and install piston groove repair shims for a somewhere around $3 apiece. Years ago, pistons were routinely "rebuilt" and reused by knurling the skirts and regrooving and installing steel shims. But when the 1960s came, rebuilding became more of a "throw-away" process, and new pistons were cheap. Now, things seem to be turning around again because some new parts are pretty damn expensive. Maybe not so bad for your 350, but wait awhile. I recently priced four pistons and four sleeves (actually a sleeve deck) for my 1010 and was given a price of $1200 !! That convinced me to hone my sleeves, put shims in the pistons, and buy new rings.

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RAB

04-04-2004 15:37:33




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 Re: Re: Question for jdemaris in reply to jdemaris, 04-03-2004 14:38:11  
I think you are right about the ether. We had both petrol and diesel landrovers even back in the sixties. Same engine basically, same horsepower. The petrols rarely broke piston rings, the diesels, where ether was used, suffered from broken rings. My later Land Rover diesel engines were never started with ether and although I re-rung one (with too much top ring side clearance) and it used oil again after 10,000 miles, it did not break the rings.
I believe that not enough attention is given to ring side clearance when people 're-ring' an engine. As you say, it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to do the job properly and a lot of disatisfied users (when the engine burns oil soon after) have only themselves to blame for the situation. I have seen very well-worn engines still working good and not using too much oil.
Regards, RAB

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