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Case Tractors Discussion Forum
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TSX Carburetor cut-away view

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F-I-T

01-04-2004 09:56:20




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I have a TSX-112 carb on this VAC. I know it is supposed to have a TSX-114, and maybe I can find one someday. But until then, I'm having the slightest problem. No matter how I tune the idle (at low or high speed), and then try and set the load, sometime during the next hour of running, it will bog as I make a rapid throttle move from idle to high speed. I don't think it should stumble like that. If I feed a bit of choke first, it will transition just fine.

I think I will have to disassemble the main jet and try and remove the idle jet, as I suspect a bit of trash in there. I had cleaned every passage with a soft wire and air, and the tank is very clean, but I know that you can always get a bit of grit into those tiny passages.

That said, does anyone have a cut-away view of a TSX carb? Also, does anyone know the design differences between a TSX-112 and TSX 114? I think it's just the side that the choke is on, but I'm hoping I'm not fighting a jet issue.

Thanks as always.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855 // VAC
[email protected]

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dctom

01-04-2004 15:59:49




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 Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 09:56:20  
HEY FRANK, SLOW THE TIMEING DOWN JUST A TAD DCTOM



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F-I-T

01-04-2004 16:06:38




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 Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to dctom, 01-04-2004 15:59:49  
Ok...now I'm getting confused.

If I'm looking in the timing window at the register mark on the flywheel, using a timing light what should I see at what speed?

Should I time it at idle or wide open?

Sorry, the holidays have made me a bit dull.

Thanks guys...won't be able to work on it till next weekend.

Frank



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Joe (Wa)

01-04-2004 18:38:51




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 Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 16:06:38  
Sorry Frank, I am responsible for your confusion. After I made the initial post, my mind drifted to my 311b which is timed on the right side as opposed to the left on the Vac.

Looking down on the distributor it turns cw. If the light is flashing right on the TDC line and you rotate the dist cw the light will move up above the line (retard) and the opposite rotation ccw will move the light below the TDC line (advance). I am not making this simple for you but for me so I can get it across without making a mistake.

When you do the initial �points just open� set and then check it at 500 rpm the light should be on the TDC line or tweak it to get it there. Move it to some point below the line if you want to have a preset advance. The total advance from 500 rpm to full speed is listed in the manual as 26 degs. The distributor does not advance until 50 rpm above idle so the total advance is distributor plus whatever advance you preset at 500 rpm.

The manual states that the initial set for the magneto impulse coupling release is 3/16� below the TDC line. I think this is confused with the �points just opening� initial set of a distributor engine in some manuals. I think both of the initial sets here will result in TDC timing on the flywheel at 500 rpm, but I know nothing about magnetos.

I haven�t seen in any Case manual that the timing at idle should be other than TDC. One of my I & T multi model manuals states TC in the spec but does not cover timing otherwise. If you are timing any engine at idle by ear, it will run faster up to a point as the spark is advanced. But faster is not necessarily better since you have to consider the advance curve.

I don�t believe that I have made any mistakes here but someone please correct me if so.

Joe

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F-I-T

01-04-2004 18:51:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to Joe (Wa), 01-04-2004 18:38:51  
Joe:

I think I got it now. At idle ~ 500 RPM, I should have the light "right on the line". I think I may need to look very closely to make out the 26* mark, as I think I'll need to "see" that that 50 yr old distributor is truly advancing correctly at high idle. I'm thinking it is advanced a bit (not much, but a bit) because it does stop a bit at the top while cranking. Of course on 6 volts, good compression does that as well.

I'll print this out and read it on the plane tomorrow.

Thanks Joe

Frank

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Joe (Wa)

01-04-2004 19:25:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 18:51:13  
Frank, that is correct, right on the line at 500 rpm. There is no 26 deg line that I am aware of. Even if there is, with an older distributor you will probably not find it in that little hole.

The factory new distributor with no wear and the proper spring tension on the fly weights is designed to provide that 26 deg advance at full speed.

You (not me anymore) may be able to use a dwell meter and calculate the advance of your distributor. Remember that distributor advance is 1/2 crank advance. You can change one or both springs to alter it if you want to get into it that far.

I have a NOS VAC distributor that I am going to install on my 311B. They are identical except the fly weight springs so I guess I will be relearning how to do it.

Good luck, Joe

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Joe (Wa)

01-04-2004 12:47:06




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 Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 09:56:20  
This is the idle circuit. Note that the mixture screw controls the air. When the throttle plate opens past the secondary idle orifice, the power jet controls most of the delivery. This is where your hesitation appears to occur.

I haven't been able to get a decent pix of the whole carb cut away.

Joe

Crap. I am too dumb to figure this out, check the photo in "parts and pieces".



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F-I-T

01-04-2004 13:22:13




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 Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to Joe (Wa), 01-04-2004 12:47:06  
Joe:

I follow that the idle screw meters air, so in is "richer". I have talked to some other folks who said they have had the experience that the idle screw can sometimes be almost if not completely shut for good idle. Another thinks I have a load jet adjustment issue, or that I might have something down in there. Understand, it really runs well, and all I have to do is to move the throttle slowly to avoid the stumble, but I would like to get it better.

BTW, Joe, I posted a pictue of my air pipe on the message down below.

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Joe (Wa)

01-04-2004 14:06:38




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 Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 13:22:13  
Ok,I read that you get some improvement with a little manual choke, but timing may be a factor and much easier to check. You probably already checked this but just a thought.

You preset the advance at 4 BTDC. The distributor does not start advancing until 550 rpm and at 600 rpm advances 1 deg or in your case crank is 6 BTDC.

1) could the burn be starting too early before the piston is over TC? When you open the throttle quickly the mixture tends to lean and ignite faster.

2) is the dist actually advancing at 600 rpm or is it later (slop?)?

I set mine at about 1/16" below the line @ 500 rpm. I think that is about 1 deg.

Joe

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F-I-T

01-04-2004 14:28:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to Joe (Wa), 01-04-2004 14:06:38  
Joe:

I will check that. That could be a rela contributing factor!

Frank



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F-I-T

01-04-2004 14:30:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 14:28:59  
how about a "real" contributing factor....

Jeeez!



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Joe (Wa)

01-04-2004 15:02:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away vi in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 14:30:51  
Hey Frank, That ballpark 1 deg BTDC should be above that line not below. I use the 1 deg ATDC for hand cranking. Joe



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Joe (Wa)

01-04-2004 15:10:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-awa in reply to Joe (Wa), 01-04-2004 15:02:46  
Crap, strike that last post! I think I need a nap. Maybe I should start drinking again? Joe



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Here you go, Joe...

01-04-2004 13:03:15




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 Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to Joe (Wa), 01-04-2004 12:47:06  
Here's the picture you wanted posted, Joe:
third party image

-Schotte



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Joe (Wa)

01-04-2004 14:09:06




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 Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to Here you go, Joe..., 01-04-2004 13:03:15  
Thanks Mike. Joe



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Alberta Mike

01-04-2004 12:28:42




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 Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 09:56:20  
Just a couple of things I might add. I'm not convinced that there is a whole lot of difference between most of those TSX series carbs. I've swapped them often from one tractor to the other (using one I know works well) for test purposes and they all seem to work equally well (other than the fact that the choke or throttle shaft might be backwards or opposite). Second, if you are ever considering removing any brass like jets or the main fuel nozzle, BE CAREFUL. You've got to heat the whole carb casting (the half you're working on) with a propane plumbers torch or in a gas barbeque or oven etc. Only then can you even think about getting that brass out, and then it can even be touchy. You'll twist that stuff off very easily trying to get it out cold. Don't try it with pot metal carb bodies, only cast iron ones. And make sure that the screwdriver of the jets or the float seat FIT PERFECTLY, even if you have to modify one to fit, otherwise you'll have a mess. There is a very good article in the "articles" section on the left side menu here for rebuilding those MS carbs (from a Ford, but thay're all the same). The author does not warn you about removing the brass, otherwise it's a great bit of writing.

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F-I-T

01-04-2004 13:34:59




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 Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to Alberta Mike, 01-04-2004 12:28:42  
Alberta Mike:

If, repeat, IF, I take it apart again, I will first just look around, probe with a soft wire, blow it out, then try it again.

If I have to completely remove those brass items, I think I'll first try get all my pretty clear coat off the outside, because it will certainly stink when I heat it with a torch.

Do you think baking in an oven will do the trick? If so, how hot? 350* or so? I have heard to use heat then let it coll completely, and only then try to remove the brass fitting.

Since I seem to idle just fine, but stumble in mid-range transition, I think I might just need to fiddle with the load adjustment. Maybe I'm just not close enough there. I think I will pull a load (a 7,000 pound tractor) and seem how that works.

Frank

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Alberta Mike

01-04-2004 14:53:26




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 Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 13:34:59  
I've never used the oven trick but was told that method by a guy who rebuilds carbs, so the temperature is a guess. I've used the propane torch though, just give it lots of heat and keep that torch moving (don't let it sit on the brass). Then I use oven mitts when handling the carb body to get it in position to remove the stuff. I guess letting it cool couldn't hurt anything. Good luck.



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Jim

01-04-2004 10:30:42




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 Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 09:56:20  
Well Frank, I have a TSX-114 and my VAC-14's, and a TSX-112 on my 1942 VAC. I used the same carb kit in all of them. Did you dip the carb when you rebuilt it? I use lye to clean everything but carbs. I use those dip bucket paint can looking things that NAPA sells for around $18.00. Works nice to remove gum, varnish, and anyother crap that gets in there(even mud bee hives). Just my 2 cents on it. Buy the way, nice website:)

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F-I-T

01-04-2004 11:12:01




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 Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to Jim, 01-04-2004 10:30:42  
third party image

Jim:

Well, I soaked it in MEK to remove any varnish, rinsed it with lacquer thinner, then did the blow dry thing. Then I hung it on the electrolysis bath for a week to de-rust it. It sure looked pretty clean. But, you never know.

Frank



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Kelvin

01-04-2004 17:46:55




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 Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 11:12:01  
If you did electrolysis on it, you may have opened up the off-idle bypass hole too much.



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F-I-T

01-04-2004 18:53:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to Kelvin, 01-04-2004 17:46:55  
Nope. In all the tons of steel and cast iron I have cooked, I'm here to tell you that the iron and steel does not erode, or change dimension. If a hole got bigger, it was because it had red rust in it that got converted to the more compact black oxide.



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Jim

01-04-2004 11:15:23




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 Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 11:12:01  
Something else my other half reminded me of. My last one wouldn't run for crap. I pulled it apart and found ONE LOUSY FRICKEN PIECE OF SILICA SAND IN IT!!!:( darn junk just gets everwhere!



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F-I-T

01-04-2004 11:54:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to Jim, 01-04-2004 11:15:23  
Jim:

Don't think you're the "Lone Ranger"!

Ha!



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todd hamilton

01-04-2004 14:16:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TSX Carburetor cut-away view in reply to F-I-T, 01-04-2004 11:54:02  
Just some thoughts from my SC experiences. Case tractors were very economical which means the little piddly carbs send the engine just enought gas to run right. I have had my tractor four years and am still getting sand in the bowl - will it never rinse all the way out? Had to change the bowl (shut off valve went bad) and guess what - tractor ran a lot better. It was starving for gas. It had the same symptoms you describe and the mixture setting was very sensitive. Make sure your point gap it set wide enough also. SC spec is .015 for mags. I set my distributor gap at .018 and get better results. Make sure the plug gaps are not to narrow also. Not trying to be critical - just learned the hard way that these things will make the engine "cough and fart" when the engine gets good and warm. They always run good cold when the stupid manifold doesn't have the temperature differential from the exhaust heat.

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