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Case Tractors Discussion Forum
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730CK head gaskets gone

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Bob/wis

07-03-2007 07:58:52




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Well I knew it was goning to happen but just not this soon. Alot was explained when I removed the heads yesterday after I had old faithful oout the exhaust. This tractor was just bought in the last year and I do not have much engine history on it. It is a diesel and ran real good and started by 2 rolls over. Upon the removal I found no gasket sealer was used and there was no o rings any where to be found. It was pushing oil off under both heads and was burning a little coolant with no pressure in to the system or coolant into the pan. So, she goes back together today with sealer and orings. Next up will be our other 930CK its has the same issues as this 730 was showing. It will be the third tractor getting new gaskets this year here. Yeap I am getting good at it. I had the heads off in a 1/2 hour yesterday. I must thank Scott from Tenn for the gaskets.
Bob

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Bob/wis

07-05-2007 12:10:17




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 Re: 730CK head gaskets gone in reply to Bob/wis, 07-03-2007 07:58:52  
Mr Garner,
After doing some research i can see why the use of a sealer was not needed on the air craft engines. It was a air cooled design that use mainly a fire ring under the head against the cylinder assembly. Alot of the big industial enignes are of the same design. In one respect the grease was used for easy of removal due to needing taken down for mantanice schedules. I am a firm beleiver in ahveing my work clean enough to eat off jus tbefore assembly. So, appying grease would counter act any of my cleaning. Also with the metal head gaskets you will have seeping from and passages througn tthe gasket if not sealed with o rings or fire rings. My first rebuild I doen was on a 172c.i. Ford diesel out of a 800 series tractor. It was destoryed by to much starting fluid. My grandad did this enigne about 15 yrs before I touched it. The was no problems with the gasket. But, On the other had it lost 3 rods 4 push rods and 2 piston skirts due to the fluid. I think thats good proof the sealer head contain the problems. Yes if the head gasket leaked it could have saved some internal parts but then again it could have destoryed the head too. As a side note of lazy mecahincs, if a ag engineer ever had to work on something they designed personally it would be redesigned over night. Each to his own.
Bob

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JGarner

07-03-2007 11:02:05




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 Re: 730CK head gaskets gone in reply to Bob/wis, 07-03-2007 07:58:52  
Gents my Dad, a 40+ year professional mechanic on large industrial engines by trade, told me to almost never use gasket compound, especially under head gaskets. Head gaskets are by design a metallic faced or all metallic compression gasket. He ALWAYS lightly smeared a thin coat of bearing grease on both mating metal surfaces, in your case head and block then put them together.

The principle is to lubricate the surfaces to let the gasket move under compression to achieve a good seal. These components are to be torqued specifed values and engineers (I am one) were paid good money to design these engines to be assembled in a specific way. Use a light coat of grease and forget gasket compound for head gaskets.

Also, torque the heads bolts down to their specified torque value in the specific sequence your manual tells you to. When in doubt and you have no manual always start from the middle and work out at diagonals. Starting from one end or working from the ends toward the middle can and will warp your heads.

ALWAYS lubricate your o-rings and mating surfaces, keeps them from rolling or tearing and holds them in place on flat surfaces of face seal applications.

Gasket compound is for composite gaskets like used under water pumps or what ever. I rarely use Form-a-Gasket at all and my machines do not leak after I have assembled them. The grease trick makes things come apart easier and clean up quicker. OLd gaskets wil not bond to mating surfaces.

In my opinion gasket compound is for lazy mecahincs that don't want to take the time to make sure mating metal surfaces are clean and free of old gasket material.

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TexasWren

07-03-2007 14:30:59




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 Re: 730CK head gaskets gone in reply to JGarner, 07-03-2007 11:02:05  
Grease the gasket? That's interesting. The Case factory manual says to clean all traces of grease off the head and block, cleaning with solvent until no trace of discoloration comes off on the rag. Seems a little daft to go to all that trouble and then grease them up again. Maybe the Case engineers didn't write the service manuals. Or if they did, they didn't know what they were talking about.

I agree with the need to grease O-rings that are going on shafts, or being inserted anywhere, and obviously any seals on rotating surfaces. But seems to me that a layer of grease on an O-ring between two flat surfaces is just going to provide a means for it to ooze outward when it's under pressure, and grease between a head and its gasket is going to encourage movement where you probably don't want it. I don't have upmteen years of experience building diesel engines out of bits of twine and rocks, but some things seem self evident.

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Bob/wis

07-03-2007 14:09:42




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 Re: 730CK head gaskets gone in reply to JGarner, 07-03-2007 11:02:05  
Mr. Garner,
I am going to check in the factory case manual tonight to see what it calls for on its gaskets. So, as you state using seale ron a composite gasket, therefore you would use it on the 1030 head gaskets? They are a composite gasket with indiviual fire rings and o rings. I have been rebuilding diesel for about 20 years. I have a 2 yr tech degree also in this field. My instructors had about 50yrs combined when I was there. I feel I have been properly taught in this field. My opion is that since I have had to replace 2 sets of gaskets in the last 2 months and neither had sealer its a poor choice o go with out it. I use Permatex avation gasket sealer. Its a shellac type of sealer that I appy a very thin coat of it. I am not nothing of a lazy mecanhic and I do have my engines cleans as possible before reassembly. The sealer takes up any little imperfections in machining that will cause a blow out in the future. When I torque my heads down I use a 4step procedure. I bring all hea dbolts up to 1/3 of max torque in a counter clockwise rotation from the center of each head. Then 2/3 torque then at full torque. Then I reinstall rest of the components and then ligthly work the tractor for a few hours to warm it up good and slow. Then the 4 th step is to retorque all the head bolts again at max. I have yet to have a blowen head gasket using this procedure and gasket sealer. Bob

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Roger (Mi)

07-03-2007 19:03:05




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 Amen, Bob in reply to Bob/wis, 07-03-2007 14:09:42  
One need not coat the entire gasket with Permatex, but certainly there needs to be a coating around push rod cavities and water jacket openings. Fire rings will take care of the compression. Without sealant around water jacket passages and the push rod cavities, seepage will soon be evident especially on the 30 series engines. Even when the seepage is not major, dust accumulates in the seepage and the engine looks like crap.

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INCase

07-03-2007 09:46:03




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 Re: 730CK head gaskets gone in reply to Bob/wis, 07-03-2007 07:58:52  
What is the "rule of thumb" for gasket sealer for head gaskets? I"m getting ready to put a set on my 800 gas (LP heads) and have been told both to use something as well as leave them dry. My gaskets have coper on the Up side if that matters. Thanks.



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JGarner

07-03-2007 19:32:32




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 Re: 730CK head gaskets gone in reply to INCase, 07-03-2007 09:46:03  
To each his own gents. Dad's training was from the US Army Air Corps from 1939 until 1945. He was the flight engineer on B-24s and none of his planes ever went down due to mechanical problems.

He worked for Humble Oil and Refining Co, now ExxonMobil, keeping their internal combustion engines running. These are engines that were so big they wouldn't fit in your hay barns.

I know what I have seen him do and I know what I have done. A very light coating of grease and proper torque/compression on gaskets and o-rings to give the proper squeeze displaces all of the grease. The grease is just used to make the seals seat not to help provide a seal like Permatex. I never saw any head gaskets dad put on leak and the 4 sets I put on in my life haven't. You guys can keep using that stuff but it doesn't have a place in my tool box and never will.

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TexasWren

07-03-2007 20:21:37




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 Re: 730CK head gaskets gone in reply to JGarner, 07-03-2007 19:32:32  
As you say, to each his own. If I ever decide to fly my diesel, I'll certainly be thinking of your dad. I don't have much use for Permatex, either, except for the spray copper stuff.

I think that proper alignment and proper torquing (and re-torquing after 20 hours or so) are the most important parts about keeping an engine from leaking. If you don't have alignment studs, make some. The 730 gasket has two of the stud holes slightly smaller, specifically for fitting alignment studs, to keep the gasket and the fire ring properly centered. If it's off center even a little bit, it won't matter if you use grease, Permatex or chewing gum.

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mnmcomposites

07-15-2007 22:40:58




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 Re: 730CK head gaskets gone in reply to TexasWren, 07-03-2007 20:21:37  
mnm Composites Pvt. Ltd., is one of the leading manufacturer & supplier of different types of Adhesive Coated Products



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