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Dumb question: Why cast iron??

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Camboted

02-07-2007 06:32:59

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Why did Case use aluminum pistons in the 930 LP Gas version and cast iron in the diesels? Was it a torque thing? Or, was it a question of strength? I know that torque is pounds of pull on a shaft with one foot lever and that hp is so many pounds lifted a distance in one second. This is puzzling since all the after market kits use aluminum pistons. Also, Ive been told that the Case 800 rated at like 55 hp had as much torque as the IH 560 rated at 65hp. True or not?

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big orange

02-08-2007 15:23:39

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Re: Dumb question: Why cast iron?? in reply to Camboted, 02-07-2007 06:32:59

The diesels were slower turning engines and the piston weight helped.

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bill koob1

02-08-2007 09:06:52

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Re: Dumb question: Why cast iron?? in reply to Camboted, 02-07-2007 06:32:59

The cast iron pistons did not raddle as much in the 730 and 930 diesels and when they (case) spent the money to make the molds for the super 400 they had to get the investment back on their cast iron molds. (just kidding about getting their money back on the molds) The part on diesel raddle is true. I've seen new oversized aluminum pistons put in brand new Case tractors. Farmers had to have more power than a neighbor (besides in a lpg (propane) tractor the resulting increase in HP was greater than just the addition of more cu. in.'s. (more compression help more). As the 800 & 560 were both rated at 1800 rpms the 560 had more torque at rated rpms (and more hp). I'd still take an 800 whatever fuel over a 560, but when they could not show up well against an 800 with a standard setup(not hopped up) they went to running them (the 560) at 2400 rpms and adding turbos; Probably reason the rearends and TA's went out of them with regularity. Thank goodness the 830 came out to get the power and rpms to compete.(added a balancer to the engine)

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dboll

02-07-2007 14:22:35

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Re: Dumb question: Why cast iron?? in reply to Camboted, 02-07-2007 06:32:59

I think Neb. test on the 560 was 58hp. Now consider reliability between them. The 560 is a pos!

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John Saeli

02-07-2007 10:33:12

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Re: Dumb question: Why cast iron?? in reply to Camboted, 02-07-2007 06:32:59

Somebody set me straight if I'm wrong, but I believe the 830 & 1030 Diesels used an aluminum piston while the 730 & 930 diesels used a cast iron piston.

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Lamont

02-07-2007 16:27:19

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Re: Dumb question: Why cast iron?? in reply to John Saeli, 02-07-2007 10:33:12

That is correct which yields yet another question. WHY????? Wait. That's the same question. This I know. They sure were some dandy tractors.

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TexasWren

02-07-2007 10:12:01

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Re: Dumb question: Why cast iron?? in reply to Camboted, 02-07-2007 06:32:59

It may have to do more with the rings than with the piston. Current diesel pistons have cast iron inserts in the area of the rings, which are then machined for the rings. This is because of the extreme pressure put on the rings, which causes excessively fast wear around the ring lands. The bonding technology to make cast iron inserts in aluminum might not have existed back then. Early aluminum pistons were cast, not forged, which was more brittle and a good deal weaker.

Also, as others have pointed out, tolerances could be closer, since cast iron expands less than aluminum (and at the same rate as the cylinder. More likely, though, it was cheaper and easier to just make the entire piston out of cast iron, especially in an application where extra weight is a bonus, not a liability.

It's a little disturbing to hear that rebuild kits use aluminum pistons. I wonder what the longevity of those kits is compared to the original pistons?

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Mathias NY

02-07-2007 09:57:25

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Re: Dumb question: Why cast iron?? in reply to Camboted, 02-07-2007 06:32:59

My first guess would be on component strength. I don't know the specs, but would suspect the diesel would reach a higher compression than the LP. Higher compression = more force against the piston. Even though the output of the engine is the same, the force seen by some of the internal compenents may be different. Metallurgy at the time may not have been able to cheaply produce Aluminum strong enough to meet the requirements. Now, several years later, technology has improved and Aluminum may be easier to produce than cast iron. There is also the possibility that the aftermarket pistons do not meet the same specifications as the originals.

On the torque thing, I seem to recall that cylinder bore had a large effect on horsepower, and stroke affected the torque. Bigger is better in both instances. I would expect to see the Case 800 with a smaller bore and longer stroke than the IH 560. The IH may also be engine HP and the Case could be PTO HP, but I think that was already mentioned.

But that is just my 2 cents...

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02-07-2007 09:21:35

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Re: Dumb question: Why cast iron?? in reply to Camboted, 02-07-2007 06:32:59

Could it be that Case and IH were rating them different like flywheel vs PTO or flywheel vs belt pulley or drawbar vs PTO or ..... .?

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Patrick (Mich.)

02-08-2007 21:01:47

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H.P. ratings in reply to mj, 02-07-2007 09:21:35

The ratings were performed by an outside, independent source, the University of Nebraska. You can be assured that they tested in the same manner for all tractors.

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Nedd

02-07-2007 08:50:09

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Re: Dumb question: Why cast iron?? in reply to Camboted, 02-07-2007 06:32:59

I would guess that it was due to cast iron sleeves and pistons would expand/contract at the same rates keeping a high compression over a wide range of temperatures. Or what else is aluminum on the tractor? Injector pump made by someone else. Cast iron was readily available. Just guessing.

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Glen_Lloyd

02-07-2007 09:11:11

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Re: Dumb question: Why cast iron?? in reply to Nedd, 02-07-2007 08:50:09

Horsepower = (Torque X RPM) / 5252 From the standard formula above you can see that if torques are the same and HP is different then the RPM is also different to make every thing work out.

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