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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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Questions on Deutz and AGCO

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lars-PA

12-20-2007 13:25:20




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I got to thinking over the past few days about the formation of AGCO. I know what AGCO is but I have some why and how questions about how things came to be.

Ok, so in the mid-80"s Deutz bought Allis Chalmers and made DA. Some of their products were Deutz, and the 9000 series was a Deutz-White machine. Why did they do this when Allis had released the 8000 series a few years before? For that matter, why did they not keep the 6000 series as well?

Question 2: So DA gave up in the early 90"s and AGCO formed. Hesston and White tractors came along in 91 and New Idea - White planters came in 93. Why was AGCO buying everything under the sun? Was Allis" full line of equipment gone by then and other brands were needed to pick up the slack? Also, why was there a need for white and New Idea? I wouldn"t say White was a better tractor or had a better reputation and Hesston certainly was a bigger name then New Idea at the time.

Question 3: Massey came along in 94. I was under the presumption that globally, MF was a strong brand. Was Massey having financial troubles or just looking to sell? Or was AGCO just spending money like there was no tomorrow?

Thanks for the help. I"m sorry for all the questions. I will enjoy any input, fact or opinion, on the matter.

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cadet trooper

12-22-2007 16:03:06




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 Re: Questions on Deutz and AGCO in reply to lars-PA, 12-20-2007 13:25:20  
lars, you asked and that is the rest of the story as Paul Harvey would say including much more. Happy Holidays! CT



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Ron in Indiana

12-20-2007 16:58:14




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 Re: Questions on Deutz and AGCO in reply to lars-PA, 12-20-2007 13:25:20  
as a former Allis mechanic when this all went on let me add my point of view.

the 80s were hard on farm equipment companys and they all suffered.

Allis was hurting from the N series combine goat screwing. combines were a LARGE part of the business but for a while we could not give away a Gleaner combine.

7000 series tractors not being able to keep a rearend together

The 426 allis engine was pushed to its limits and in need a major update as were the 301 engine.

customers wanted powershift transmissions like a Deere 15 speed and I was told Allis had one in testing.

In short farms had no money to spend for equipment, allis couldent build a combine or tractor without taking a hit from warranty claims and along comes Deutz goose steping in with a load of $$. Deutz would have done ok if they just kept the allis orange and listened to the customers.

When Agco came about we were told they wanted to bring back the Allis name but Deutz refused to sell them the allis name or use it in any way..... ..... so they used the next best thing..... .. AGCO

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Jack a

12-21-2007 04:37:08




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 Re: Questions on Deutz and AGCO in reply to Ron in Indiana, 12-20-2007 16:58:14  
I really have to disagree about the rearend on the 7000 series tractors. In my view they were about the most sound tranny and rearend at the time. I also worked at an AC dealer for some years before moving to a CaseIH dealer. They were solid and much better built than the 66 and 86 series from IH. In four years at the AC dealer the most the shop had to do as far as rearends and transmissions was put new seals in only a couple Power Directors that were cooked out and rear seals in the Power Shift models. Both took very little time to do. That rear seal for the Power Shift was about all that would go wrong with them. The older mechanics told me they had only one PS tranny tear up in all their years. Maybe after I left they might have had enough hours to come undone but I don't believe they have ever been known as a poorly built transmission. I'll agree mostly with your other statements except that I think AC would have recovered if they could have kept from selling out. To many when AC sold out that was the death of AC and anything after that was just a foreign entity. American farmers are very reluctant to buy foreign when there are good American farm companies still around.

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cadet trooper

12-20-2007 16:38:26




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 Re: Questions on Deutz and AGCO in reply to lars-PA, 12-20-2007 13:25:20  
You have asked some very good questions that the answers would take more than this forum to answer. First of all in a nutshell things started to fall apart after Jimmie Carter's Russian grain embargo in 1980 prior to that corn was over $ 3.00 a bushel I along with my partener entered the business in 1978 life was good then the embargo hit we could've locked the doors other than parts and no one would have noticed AC kept cranking out equipment and the dealers got the bill, then past dues started biting them in the A** there credit rating started falling plus their stock value then entered the Germans this also happened to White, Hesston and so on the rest is history. Hopefully there will be a documentry some day on the real story.CT

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Jack a

12-21-2007 04:13:10




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 Re: Questions on Deutz and AGCO in reply to cadet trooper, 12-20-2007 16:38:26  
I would also add that Reagan didn't help the situation. He opened the flood gates to ag imports such as soybeans from S. America and powdered milk and cheese from Australia. This when we were dumping ag products in to the ocean. The flat prices were driven even lower. When asked at news conferences about what he'd do for the farmers during this crisis, he would joke. "lets keep the grain and export the farmers" or "if they can't take the heat get out of the kitchen" were things he would say. He would oppose policies like the "Dirty Fingernail" Policy instead and always took the side of large agribusiness.

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Jack a

12-20-2007 14:28:55




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 Re: Questions on Deutz and AGCO in reply to lars-PA, 12-20-2007 13:25:20  
They first tried to shove the Deutz line on the farmer (such as the 7145 and 7120. They had a lot of problems in tranny area and weren't popular. The Allis line was discontinued years before the 9100 series came out. Tooling was sold off so the next thing was to buy White tractors and put Deutz engines in them to try to regain lost market share with the American farmer. They couldn't sell that puke green with an air-cooled engine.

They sold off most of the implement line when Deutz had them and didn't keep up with the technology needed to build there own again. Buying others out is the easy way to again have implements to sell. They also started to look at things like GM looked at the auto industry, selling several brands under one roof. (I think this is a failing strategy).

Yes MF was hurting (not sure why) and it was again a way to gain a whole lot of world market share.

Fact or not that's what I have.

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180doug

12-20-2007 14:54:26




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 Re: Questions on Deutz and AGCO in reply to Jack a, 12-20-2007 14:28:55  
Had Deutz put their engine in the AC tractors and sold both orange + green ones they probably would have been fine; KHD dismantled AC ,it probably could have been a good merger but they thought they had the AC dealers and they could push their merchandise through them ;didnt work ; AGCO probably had to grow to survive ,and they did very well at that; [just opinions and thoughts]



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Jack a

12-21-2007 04:25:12




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 Re: Questions on Deutz and AGCO in reply to 180doug, 12-20-2007 14:54:26  
I worked at an AC dealer during Deutz and into AGCO. I always thought that they should have done this too. They had the factory to even build the engines here instead of in Germany (they were too high priced from Germany). They wouldn't listen to their dealers. The same when AGCO went with the small tractors from Italy. The Italian engineers, who worked under the AGCO name, wouldn't listen to their US counter parts. They built tractors that wouldn't start in cold weather no matter how much we would complain. The blockman would even swear when talking to us at service school about how those d@mned Italians were so d@mned independent. Starters were too small along with batteries and cables. When they came over the US plant would have to rework those "Same" tractors because the Italians at the Same plant just refused to do it. Germans were much the same but not quite as bad. AGCO had a lot to recover from.

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856puller

12-20-2007 16:52:59




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 Re: Questions on Deutz and AGCO in reply to 180doug, 12-20-2007 14:54:26  
i started with ac went thru deutz and left at agco. the deutz service dept. was hard to work with they let go a lot of ac people. they wouldnt build a big mfwd tractor and when they did we got the 9100 what a joke. deutz didnt know the U.S. market and tired of us quickly. the guys that were running deutz allis took over and renamed to agco allis gleaner corperation. first thing to change was back to orange paint. things were getting better then i left so i dont know how things are now. i do know there was three dealers close and now none. as for the 8000 that would have been a good tractor mutch better than a 9100 but it needed to be updated also. i was told that deutz wouldnt pay what allis wanted for it. we went from selling 4w305s and 8030-70s to nothing plus it was the mid to late 80s and things werent good here anyway.

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