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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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D12 generator

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CB Ohio

12-11-2007 07:08:17




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I have a D12 Series II 12 volt positive ground that seems to be having generator problems. Sparks came from the generator area one evening just after dark as I was putting it away for the night. The ammeter shows a slight discharge when the tractor is running, and a 10 amp discharge with the lights on. Is there a way to definately determine the generator is going bad? If it is bad, would I be better off changing to negative ground and putting an alternator on? This is a work tractor, not a parade tractor so I am not determined to stay original. Any opinions on my options? Remanufactured generators are pricey.

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Kentb of SWMO

12-12-2007 08:28:05




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to CB Ohio, 12-11-2007 07:08:17  
One wire alternator do not work well on low speed engine s like tractors. I would wire you tractor for the three wire system. Find a 70's auto repair manuel for a diagram. The only thing to do differant than this diagram is to use a diode in place of the 10 ohm with the band on the diode towards the alternator.

Kent



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CB Ohio

12-12-2007 05:36:58




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to CB Ohio, 12-11-2007 07:08:17  
Thanks Gents! I think I am going to go down the single wire alternator route. Would it make sense to just replace the VR while I'm in there?



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John T

12-12-2007 07:22:17




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to CB Ohio, 12-12-2007 05:36:58  
CB, The alternator you purchase will have its own and probably an internal Voltage Regulator you will NOT be using the old DC generator regulator..... .It gets discarded, its ONLY for the old genny system.

If you use a one wire your output will wire up to the Load (NOT battery/starter) side of the ammeter, the same ammeter terminal that used to connect to the BAT terminal on the old Voltage Regulator and I replace the wire with 8 or 10 gauge and also the wire from the ammeter to the battery/starter. Again, if youre swapping from Pos to Neg ground in addition to the battery reversal the coil leads and the ammeter leads need swapped side to side. The ammeter still has only one wire on its Supply side that connects to the hot ungrounded battery post (often where the big battery cable attaches to a starter switch/solenoid) and likely 2 on its Load terminal which wires to the alternator output plus feeds hot batetry voltage to loads like lights n ignition.

John T

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CB Ohio

12-12-2007 12:04:57




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to John T, 12-12-2007 07:22:17  
John, thanks for the voltage regulator reminder. I actually knew that and forgot all about it. Based on the links Stu supplied, I think I should actually be going the 3 wire 10SI route. How do you decide capacity? The tractor doesn't draw much now, but if I am going to be negative ground, that opens the door for other 12 volt accessories (a skid sprayer with an electric pump comes to mind).

Thanks everyone for your help!
Chris

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John T

12-12-2007 13:26:18




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to CB Ohio, 12-12-2007 12:04:57  
Unless you got some awful big loads to add besides lights n ignition, I never had to worry about capacity in an old tractor. Remember the old gennys kept up although many were only like 10 to 20 amps while even the smaller alternators are almost twice that. One advantage of the GM 10 SI is they are sooooo ooo cheap n reliable n sooooo oo easy to purchase about anywhere plus once wired to work like a one wire (just add the excitation circuitry) they engage at low RPM and dont have any lil trickle discharge problems when setting long periods. I recommend use of the 10 ohms protective resistor in the excitation circuit in which case the diode isnt usually even needed.

Heres how I wire a GM 10SI Alternator and remember, it requires NEGATIVE GROUND !!!!! !

The big rear main alternator output terminal goes to the wire that used to be connected to the BAT terminal on the Voltage Regulator or Cutout Relay. The alternator output wires to the Load (NOT battery/starter) side of the ammeter. HOWEVER if that wire wasnt already upgraded, when I convert from a Genny to an Alternator, I replace that wire with a 10 Gauge and it runs from the alternators main output up to the LOAD (NOT to battery/starter) side of the ammeter. I also replace/use 10 Gauge from the ammeters other SUPPLY terminal to the battery/starter.

The little side number 2F Voltage Sense Terminal gets connected (use a short 14 jumper wire) right up to to and with the big main output terminal mentioned above.

For the little 1R side Excitation Terminal, run a 16 or so gauge wire from the ignition switches IGN (which is hot ONLY when ignition is turned on) output terminal or the coils high input (NOT to distributor) terminal, and in series with it place a 10 ohm 5 watt current limiting protection resistor. Then in the rare event the tractor continues to run cuz of alternator backfeed when the ignition is switched OFF, I add in series a 5 amp 50 PIV minimum Diode. The diode must be wired with negative cathode end to the alternator and positive anode end to the switch. Again, the ratings are not that exact but about any diode over a few amps and 50 volts or so works BUT YOU MAY WELL NOT EVEN NEED IT IF YOU USE THE 10 OHM PROTECTION RESISTOR.

Dont forget to change the battery to negative ground and the coil needs to be wired so the negative goes to ground via the distributor points and the positive gets power from the ignition switch and you have to reverse ammeter leads also if you�re just now changing polarities.

Good luck Ol John T in Indiana

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stu (ON)

12-12-2007 13:10:16




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to CB Ohio, 12-12-2007 12:04:57  
Chris, following is a post with pics and explanation of what you are dealing with. You have the option of running a short sensing line to the alternator B+ post if you will have minimal load, or creating a distant junction if you intend to utilize electrical appliances, as you suggested. If you elect to get into the higher amperage alternator, you may bury the needle on your present ammeter, which may burn it out (I don't know). John T has already recommended using the proper gauge of wire for the application. You may want to convert to a voltmeter if you go high amp alternator, and install a fusible link where it makes sense.

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stu (ON)

12-12-2007 06:18:07




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to CB Ohio, 12-12-2007 05:36:58  
You might want to look at the following web pages before selecting your replacement.



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stu (ON)

12-12-2007 06:21:21




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to stu (ON), 12-12-2007 06:18:07  
DR SI alternators



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Jeff Z.

12-11-2007 08:24:40




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to CB Ohio, 12-11-2007 07:08:17  
You can get a single wire alternator with low cut in specially built for tractors from The Brillman Company. 540-477-4112



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John T

12-11-2007 08:09:04




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to CB Ohio, 12-11-2007 07:08:17  
CB, I may not like how they look n it gives the Correct Police fits (lol but thats their problem) but an alternaor charges more at lower RPM and is a better device from an engineering perspective.

If you go that route most all unless a custom made unit requires negative ground so Id probably convert the tractor over. Assuming a gas tractor with a battery coil distributor ignition you would have to swap coil leads i.e. + gets voltage from the switch while its lil - wires to the distributor. Likewise an ammeter would need its leads swapped or it will read bass ackwards.

I will post below a small portion of my Non Charging Troubleshooting Procedure which shows if non charging is a genny or a VR problem, post back if you need the complete procedure in case you decide to repair the genny system instead. Sounds like your genny crapped out, perhaps a brush or bearing problem or maybe more serious

If you want instructions on converting to a GM 10 SI 3 wire alternator to work like a one wire, let me know. A one wire device is simpler to wire but some require a higher RPM to initially excite.


TO DETERMINE IF ITS A GEN OR VR OR CUTOUT RELAY PROBLEM

5. a) VOLTAGE REGULATOR SYSTEM: With the tractor running, temporarily ground the Gens Field post to case. If she charges then but NOT otherwise, the VR may be bad, or a wires missing from VR's Field post to the Field terminal on the VR, or the VR isn�t well grounded.

b) IF IT�S A CUTOUT RELAY SYSTEM and she charges only if you dead ground the Field but NOT otherwise, its either a bad switch or the switch isn�t well grounded or else the wires bad or open from the Gens Field post up to the switch. INSURE THAT GOOD SWITCH GROUND AND WIRING

6. If she still don�t charge, leave the Field grounded and jump a wire across from the VR or Cutout Relays BAT terminal over to its GEN terminal (jump by passes the cutout relay) and see if she charges. If then but not otherwise, a VR's cutout relay isn�t working correct (maybe points burned/carboned) or a Cutout Relays NOT working or not wired correct.

7. With the 2 steps above, you have basically by passed the VR or Cutout relays functions, so if she still don�t charge, you're left with a bad battery or wiring or the Gen itself.

8. MOTOR TEST. You can Motor test the Gen. If its grounded and you remove the belt and apply hot battery voltage direct to its ARM Post and have the Field Post dead grounded to frame, it should motor n run well (Armature n Brushes and Commutator likely okay). Then, if you next remove the Fields ground and it speeds up some, the Fields probably good. If it passes both those tests, it should charge, and if not, it may be a wiring or battery or grounding problem. The hot battery voltage may be taken off the VR's BAT terminal or the starter post or the battery itself for this test.

9. Typical Gen problems may be the brushes are worn down or the hold down spring assemblies are stuck/corroded/dirty and arent pushing the brushes tight down against the commutator. Check those things out. Worse may be bad fields or armature etc. Air and WD 40 etc can clean and free them, the hold downs must be free n snap and hold the brushes DOWN TIGHT and they cant be worn down too low.

SUMMARY: Check the wiring,,,,,the grounds,,,,, insure BAT on VR or Relay is hot,,,,, ,check battery (maybe load tested and Specific Gravity checked),,,,, ,,,good tight belt,,,,, ,insure ammeter is continuous (BOTH sides HOT),,,,, see if battery voltage rises above 12.6 (half that for 6 volt system) and/or light glow brighter,,,,, ,,,do the Field and cutout relay VR by pass checks,,,,, ,,insure the Gens brushes arent worn down and the hold down springs are free n clean and push the brushes down tight,,,,, ,,,,,check the connections,,,,, ,,,try the Gen Motor Test to see if its good.

John T

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Jeff Z.

12-11-2007 07:42:54




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to CB Ohio, 12-11-2007 07:08:17  
In the wiring diagrams photo 11 is the way to go.
You can get a 12 volt coil with a built in resistor so you can eliminate the ballast resistor in the diagram.



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Jeff Z.

12-11-2007 07:29:14




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to CB Ohio, 12-11-2007 07:08:17  
Wiring Diagrams:
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4001561&a=30065733



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Jeff Z.

12-11-2007 07:24:26




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 Re: D12 generator in reply to CB Ohio, 12-11-2007 07:08:17  
I would go with a 12 negative ground with a Delco 10SI single wire alternator.
Makes life simple.



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