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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR

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TOWBOATT

08-28-2007 12:20:31




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I HAVE A D14 AND JUMPS OUT OF 2ND AND 3RD GEAR.I PUT STRONGER SPRINGS FOR THE DETENT BALLS BUT STILL DOES IT.I KNOW THERE IS A SHIFT COLLAR AND THE GEARS HAVE GEAR FOR THAT SHIFT COLLAR.I GUESS I NEED TO KNOW WHAT CAUSES THE TRAM. TO JUMP OUT OF GEAR. THANKS




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Trent Williams

09-15-2007 03:23:27




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to TOWBOATT, 08-28-2007 12:20:31  
My D14 had worn gears, but I discovered that getting them to engage deeper would keep it from jumping out of gear. I made a new rod and located the detents to allow a deeper engage. It involves some pretty accurate homemade "measuring jigs". As I recall, I moved my 3rd gear about .100". If you relocate a detent too far, the ball will not drop in. It appears that the factory "lack of engagment" is a result of an accumulation of tolerances on all the parts.

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Steve K.

08-29-2007 20:25:54




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to TOWBOATT, 08-28-2007 12:20:31  
Does anyone have a copy of the service bulletin describing the process for making the modification that "Jack a" mentioned?



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Jack a

08-31-2007 08:55:54




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to Steve K., 08-29-2007 20:25:54  
I don't have any and to be fair what I remember was a service update for the 190 and 190xt. There may have been and probably was one for other models but I don't remember now. I know that type of fix had been done to my uncle's D14 right after he bought it new in 1960.



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Jack a

08-31-2007 03:48:18




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to Steve K., 08-29-2007 20:25:54  
I don't have any and to be fair what I remember was a service update for the 190 and 190xt. There may have been and probably was one for other models but I don't remember now. I know that type of fix had been done to my uncle's D14 right after he bought it new in 1960.



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Jack a

08-29-2007 03:45:34




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to TOWBOATT, 08-28-2007 12:20:31  
John and Texas Denny are both right. Allis did have issues with quality control for a time in the 60's and many transmission shifting rails were fixed under warranty. Not that bad. Many did not jump out until alot of hours were put on them and beyond warranty and still needed only cover work to fix. Many just got wore out from use which helical gear transmissions are prone to from the natural fore and aft thrust that wears the thrust washers out. Many were abused which again helical transmission can be vunerable to. On the other hand I have seen quite a few M Farm-a-little tractors jump out of gear and they have a spur gear tranny which isn't so likely to do so. I say spend the money and repair them and you'll have a darn good tractor for a whole lot of years. One note I'll make, I've worked in both AC and IH equipment dealers and I find that AC people are much less likely to spend the money to repair a tractor than the IH people in general. I don't know why. But in the four years that I worked for the IH dealer I saw guys way over spend on their tractors when the tractor was not worth half that money. I saw a guy spend over $5,000 to overhaul the engine, clutch, tranny, and TA of his Super MTA at a time when it was only worth about $1,100 to $1,500 after repairs. And over $6,000 on a 504 that wasn't worth over $2,500 when done. I never saw anything close to that at the AC dealer. I saw alot of cobble jobs roll in at the AC dealer. Not that there wasn't at the IH dealer too but much more so at the AC dealer. Go figure.

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John (MO)

08-28-2007 14:00:28




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to TOWBOATT, 08-28-2007 12:20:31  
If the shifting forks are worn and are not fully engaging the gears then that can be your problem. If the gears are worn from people grinding the gears before they come to a stop, then better forks are not going to solve your problem. In that case you are going to have to split the tractor and replace the gears. As you are having a problem with both second and third it is my guess that you have a tractor that has been abused by someone trying to shift it on the go and/or shift it using only the power director, and you have gear wear from that. To check for sure: pull the cover off and fully engage second gear. Now start the tractor and test it with a downhill run. Start down hill with the power director on the high side and then quickly pull it back into the low side. If the transmission jumps out of gear, when you know that the gears were fully engaged, then you know you have a gear problem and not a fork problem. When you fix it, make sure you shift correctly so you don't cause the problem to happen to the new gears.

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Texas Denny

08-28-2007 15:47:13




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to John (MO), 08-28-2007 14:00:28  
I'm sorry. I didn't wish to offend but I don't understand why this can't be a design problem.



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Texas Denny

08-28-2007 15:45:43




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to John (MO), 08-28-2007 14:00:28  
John, I don't wish to start anything but I am curious. I have owned all brands of tractors. I currently have 6 brands with more Allis than anything else, including a D-17 and D-14. I have never encountered this problem with any other make or model. But it is very common with D-14 and D-17 tractors. Are you suggesting that Allis tractor drivers are far poorer drivers than the drivers of other makes? Why is this a problem restricted to D series, some CA and WD tractors?

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John (MO)

08-29-2007 07:06:29




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to Texas Denny, 08-28-2007 15:45:43  
I`m afraid I have very little if any knowledge of other tractor brands. Starting with an unstyled WC that my father bought new, he nor I have never owned another brand of tractor. Likewise I have no idea how many hours AC designed any part to wear and be trouble free. It would seem to me to be near impossible to design something like a gear to not wear over the course of 40, 50 or 50+ years. Maybe there was good enough steel and design at the time, that such was an option. If that is the case, could anyone have afforded a tractor made from it. Certainly in hindsight, there must be designs that would have been superior. Were these known in the 1940`s or 1950`s or even the 1960`s? I personally don`t know. I know we didn`t have many jet airplanes during much of that time. The space shuttle didn't come along until after that. Car companies weren`t making many cars that ran several hundred thousands of miles. Cell phone were only in comic books. So looking back, it is too bad that we didn`t learn how to design and build things better a lot sooner than we did. Our ancestors used stone tools for way too many years, they should have moved into the bronze age millions of years earlier. Also I think many of us know people today who can tear up an anvil with a rubber mallet, I suspect their kind have been with us for years, and we still can`t out engineer their destructive ability.

I wonder how many AGCO DT240`s will be around say 50 years from today, and at that time what people will think of the design? Will they find their design to be flawed or flawless?

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Mr Bob

08-28-2007 18:26:11




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to Texas Denny, 08-28-2007 15:45:43  
I operated both a Wd and a D17 for many years on my dad's dairy farm. These tractors both pulled 3 bottom plows in a hard limestone clay soil, disced, pulled baler and wagons, corn pickers and wagons, pulled out tree stumps...all kinds of "heavy" work. I have NEVER experienced either of them jumping out of gear. I never knew that anyone had this problem with AC's until I'd read so much about it on here.

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Texas Denny

08-29-2007 06:49:53




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to Mr Bob, 08-28-2007 18:26:11  
Bob, my experiences years ago was the same as yours. It wasn't a problem on the vast majority of tractors in the 50's and 60's. And not many failed in that time period. My analysis is that the tolerances that were used were too wide. If they all added up in the direction away from engagement, the gears were barely engaged. This would, of course, be an unusual situation and not the norm. If the tolerances added up in the other direction, the forks would be pushing the gear after full engagement which would wear out the forks or the side of the gear. Since this has not been observed, it would appear that the engineers added up all the tolerances to insure that the gear wear issue wouldn't happen and decided that the slight engagement would be acceptable. Fifty years later they would probably agree that the tolerances needed to substantially tightened up and the detent position be moved toward more engagement. Though this is irritating today, this is certainly not the the first or last situation like this in tractor history.

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Texas Denny

08-28-2007 12:56:48




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to TOWBOATT, 08-28-2007 12:20:31  
This is a problem with some controversy. Many maintain that the only solution is new gears. I maintain that in some cases, new shifting forks will solve the problem. Since you've been inside the transmission, you will have determined if the gears are in respectable shape. The one that I worked on had fairly good looking gears. If they were fully engaged, it seemed like they would hold. But the forks did not push the gears to fully mesh. I solved mine by a different set of forks that pushed the gears about 0.080 closer to full engagement. They were still .030 from full engagement. The tractor stayed in gear as long as I owned it. Putting in stronger springs for the detent won't do the trick - moving the detent point will.

Two ways to make it work. First is different forks that push it farther in gear - this hit and miss because another set of used forks may be better or worse. Or, build a new shaft for the forks with the detent 0.100 farther out toward engagement. Of course, the third is splitting the tractor and putting in new gears. A fourth might be building up the fork on the side that pushed it in gear but this requires a lot of equipment most don't have.

Like I've said, not all will agree with this. It is an Allis Chalmers manufacturing error with bad tolerances on the forks. Many believe it is a poor operator.

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LilFarmer

08-28-2007 18:15:03




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to Texas Denny, 08-28-2007 12:56:48  
Texas Denny,

I concur. I was an Allis Chalmers dealer during the D series and through the 1000 series. We fixed many, many while under warranty so gear grinding was not the issue or the company would not have allowed warranty. We did do as you have suggested and actually welded the detent notch closed on one side and then used a die grinder to open the opposite side, effectively moving the detent notch by about 1/8 inch. I am still using a 185 diesel with about 9000 hours on it that has never jumped out of gear after performing the above procedure. This tractor is used in a produce operation and is driven daily by people who can't speak english. Talk about abuse!!!!

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Texas Denny

08-29-2007 06:59:30




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to LilFarmer, 08-28-2007 18:15:03  
I appreciate your comments. I spent many hours looking at these transmissions, making measurements, making more measurement, making more measurements. My conclusion was the tolerances were too wide. When they added up toward disengagement, the engage was minimal. It worked at the factory but wouldn't hold up 50 years. I concluded from this study that the transmission could be made serviceable by replacing forks, modifying the detent shaft, building up the forks or replacing gears and forks. The easiest was replacing forks.

I hadn't thought of welding the notch closed. I figured to just build a new shaft. Apparently your welding didn't hurt the shaft temper. My conclusion was the detent was off by 0.110. Your comment of an 1/8" (0.125) is consistent with my measurements.

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Jack a

08-29-2007 08:04:10




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 Re: D14 JUMPS OUT OF GEAR in reply to Texas Denny, 08-29-2007 06:59:30  
Allis put that in updated manuals as far as moving the detent position. Weld it up and grind a new one. They gave you to info to excactly put the detent where it needed to be. Still, years of wear will eventually make it pop out again but should takes thousands of hours.



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