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Case man seeks advice from Hyraulic expert.

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Casekernel

08-25-2007 16:21:53




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I've posted on this site before regarding my son's WD 45--As I recall Texas Denny was helpful to me then. Now my Problem.

Have a 49 SC Case with Single valve control pump. I understand that this pump is supposed to have down pressure. It is not for a three point or eagle hitch.

I installed a working cylinder (mounts on left side of tractor), and a lift bail. The cylinder has two ports. When I hook this up one hose to left of pump (lift up) and one hose to right of pump(lift down), I only get a few ups and downs before the pressure builds on right side so as to "freeze" the system. I understand that that each side of this pump has an output and a return valve. It seems that the return valve is not working or something. The only way I can use this cylinder and bail, is to plumb the left side of the pump back into resevoir to get relief and block of the lower port on the working cylinder.

This method works okay to lift and will go down with natural weight, but I have NO DOWN PRESSURE. Sure would like to have that.

Can anybody on this site tell me what's going on or better yet, what's not going on with the pump?

I have posted a number of times recently on the Case Forum under the handel "Casekernel" if anyone wants a history of my struggle before attempting advice, it might help to read those postings. I've tried whatever has been suggested there, but no resolution to the problem to date.
Viva La Allis Chalmers!!

Going to a tractor show tomorrow in Le Sueur, MN where theAllis tractor is being featured. We had both Allis and Case on our farm when I was growing up.

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farm-al

08-26-2007 20:43:43




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 Re: Case man seeks advice from Hyraulic expert. in reply to Casekernel, 08-25-2007 16:21:53  
If you look at the connection where the hyd lines hook to the valve there is a fitting you can unscrew, there is a spring in this fitting and also a steel ball that the pushrod contacts and pushes off the seat letting return oil back into the valve and then to the reservior. unless you have an adjustable flow control installed on one of the hyd lines that has been closed it should work.farm-al



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Casekernel

08-27-2007 01:49:15




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 Re: Case man seeks advice from Hyraulic expert. in reply to farm-al, 08-26-2007 20:43:43  
I have taken the right side swivel connector off and examined. I have the ball and spring back in correctly. I have had the valve head off on the right side. You say there is a push rod. It should then pop out of the main body with the valve head off when I engage the lever in that direction. (Frankly, I wasn't looking for one then because I had no idea how things were supposed to work in there.) I don't know if I actually worked the lever when I had the valve head off. Would the push rod push against the ball bearing then? And could it be missing, is the question? I thought may be internal fluid pressure caused the ball to release, but you say there is a push rod. Hmm!!

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Texas Denny

08-25-2007 20:34:13




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 Re: Case man seeks advice from Hyraulic expert. in reply to Casekernel, 08-25-2007 16:21:53  
How many lines are connected to your valve? To get both up and down pressure, your valve must have four ports and be a three position valve (called a three position four way valve). Two ports go to the two sides of the cylinder. The third port goes to the sump. The fourth port connects to the pump. When the valve is in the center position, the oil from the pump is routed back to the sump and the ports to both sides of the cylinder are blocked. When you move the valve handle forward, the oil is diverted to one end of the cylinder and the other side of the cylinder is ported to the sump. When you move the handle the other way, the situation reverses. Your post suggests to me that you either don't have the third port piped to the sump or you have a three way valve which will not permit down pressure. If I could see the valve I could tell you which it is for sure (picture sent to my email). If the valve has only three ports, it is a three way valve and won't do the job for you.

If you have a four way three position valve, you will need to study the ports to determine which is the sump port - in the center position it is connected to the pump port. I usually figure out the ports before connecting the valve by blowing air in the ports.

If your tractor is an 49 Case, I would expect your valve to be a three way three position. You must have a 4 way 3 position valve.

Been a while since I used these terms (3 way etc) but I am confident of the description of the way they work.

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Casekernel

08-27-2007 01:32:31




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 Re: Case man seeks advice from Hyraulic expert. in reply to Texas Denny, 08-25-2007 20:34:13  
The service manual (Jen Sales)I have says that this type of pump has both an output and return valve on either side (all internal) and the only difference between the two sides is that the left side has an "auxiliary relief valve" and the right does not. Farmer Al, below, seems to understand this system and its internal workings and how it "should" work on this 49 model. The tractor I saw at the tractor show today, (DC with similar setup) had the top port of the working cylinder plugged, the left hose from the pump plumbed to a T to the resevoir and the right side hose going to the lower port on the work cylinder. The guy never used it (father's tractor, father now deceased) so he could not tell me how it worked or if it indeed had down pressure). I've posted a guy on the Case site who has 49 SC with same pump to see if he has down pressure on his. Some one posted on Case board (arhives, someplace) that the difference between the old motor lift with springs on the early 49 SC and the 49 SC with the hydraulic pump, was that this later pump had down pressure capabilities.

There are a couple of pictures from the arhives under the name Mike Schotte with a brush hog attached. Although the pump is very greasy, it appears that he has plumbed from either side of the pump to the work cylinder with no hose going up under the seat where the resevoir filler plug or T as I have to do to get my pump to work. The posting date is 12-11-2003.

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Casekernel

08-27-2007 01:30:11




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 Re: Case man seeks advice from Hyraulic expert. in reply to Texas Denny, 08-25-2007 20:34:13  
The service manual (Jen Sales)I have says that this type of pump has both an output and return valve on either side (all internal) and the only difference between the two sides is that the left side has an "auxiliary relief valve" and the right does not. Farmer Al, below, seems to understand this system and its internal workings and how it "should" work on this 49 model. The tractor I saw at the tractor show today, (DC with similar setup) had the top port of the working cylinder plugged, the left hose from the pump plumbed to a T to the resevoir and the right side hose going to the lower port on the work cylinder. The guy never used it (father's tractor, father now deceased) so he could not tell me how it worked or if it indeed had down pressure). I've posted a guy on the Case site who has 49 SC with same pump to see if he has down pressure on his. Some one posted on Case board (arhives, someplace) that the difference between the old motor lift with springs on the early 49 SC and the 49 SC with the hydraulic pump, was that this later pump had down pressure capabilities.
There are a couple of pictures from the arhives under the name Mike Schotte with a brush hog attached. Although the pump is very greasy, it appears that he has plumbed from either side of the pump to the work cylinder with no hose going up under the seat where the resevoir filler plug or T as I have to do to get my pump to work. The posting date is 12-11-2003.

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farm-al

08-26-2007 04:54:51




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 Re: Case man seeks advice from Hyraulic expert. in reply to Texas Denny, 08-25-2007 20:34:13  
if this is a stock sc case hyd system with one hose conection on each side of the hyd valve the pump is internal ,the suction and return oil to the valve is all internal,you should be able to hook a two way cyl to it and it should work, if you want it to work single action you should hook a return line to the side of the valve you are not using and plumb it back into the hyd oil reservoir, these valves have an internal check valve on each outlet that is unseated with a push rod that lets return oil flow back into the valve unless you have a remote valve that is an add on, your system should work both ways,farm-al

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Casekernel

08-26-2007 16:25:53




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 Re: Case man seeks advice from Hyrdraulic expert. in reply to farm-al, 08-26-2007 04:54:51  
Yes, it is an original system on the 49 SC Case. Some came out with motor lifts with springs, mine is all hydraulic with one hose coming out each side. And it has only one lever to operate the system, up and down. I've seen pictures of the hoses hooked up to the two ports on the cylinder, and true or not, I've been told that I should have action both ways. The only way mine seems to operate is if I plug one port in the cylinder and plumb one hose back into the resevoir. Although I've not tried it with equipment--I don't think I have any down pressure this way. I think this is what you mean by a "single work action". I was hoping to get a "double action" out of this pump with down pressure.

You mention a check valve that is unseated by a "push rod". I had the valve head off and I did not see such--could it be missing on the right side? For some reason the oil is not permitted to flow back, as I think it should. There seems to be only one main cylinder that goes back and forth actuated by the lever itself for directionality.

You seem to be familiar with this pump. I guess my main question is, if this pump is designed to work double action--why isn't it?

I was at a tractor show today and saw similar pump and work cylinder on a DC. The owner could not answer my questions, because he doesn't use the lift. It was his dad's tractor and that information was not passed on from his deceased father.

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farm-al

08-25-2007 18:54:31




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 Re: Case man seeks advice from Hyraulic expert. in reply to Casekernel, 08-25-2007 16:21:53  
I used to run into this with a bad or disconected quick coupler,sometimes they stay togather but are not completly latched to gather, you might hook the cylinder to another tractor to rule out the cylinder,outher than that it could be in the contol valve,farm-al



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Casekernel

08-25-2007 16:26:31




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 Re: Case man seeks advice from Hydraulic expert. in reply to Casekernel, 08-25-2007 16:21:53  
Missed the "d" in "hydraulic" in my title--just to clarify my post.



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