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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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more wc overhaul questions.

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Rosco Sywter

01-30-2007 19:34:03




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i have a few more questions, as i ran into some unexpected situations. the new sleeves go in much tighter than i expected. i cleaned the block bore very good with emory cloth. i expected the sleeve, without the o-ring on to fit snug, but not tight. the sleeve fits fairly tight. without o-rings, i have to use a hammer on a block of wood to seat it. is this normal?? i am concerned that with the o-rings installed, i will have to pound excessively to seat sleeve.

the new pistons do not have the offset built in by different length pin bosses. they both are equal length. the space between to piston bosses is wider also, so i do not have anything to gauge where i am at on centering the rod on the wrist pin for the offset, and still making sure the pin is centered in the piston.

just how much offset is there, and how do i do this to get it right?

TIA

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Jack A

02-01-2007 05:59:39




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 Re: more wc overhaul questions. in reply to Rosco Sywter, 01-30-2007 19:34:03  
Do what Gordon said but also after it is together, make sure you can move the rod back and forth. There should be a certain amount of side play and at least then you will know that the wrist pin is not tight against the cylinder wall.



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Jack A

02-01-2007 03:56:07




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 Re: more wc overhaul questions. in reply to Rosco Sywter, 01-30-2007 19:34:03  
Do what Gordon said but also after it is together, make sure you can move the rod back and forth. There should be a certain amount of side play and at least then you will know that the wrist pin is not tight against the cylinder wall.



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Gordon in IN

01-31-2007 11:59:08




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 Re: more wc overhaul questions. in reply to Rosco Sywter, 01-30-2007 19:34:03  
The Picture posted by Dick L. does NOT appear to be a picture of a WC engine block and WC connecting rods. It does appear to be a B or C engine block and B or C connecting rods. The B and C connecting rods are offset in respect to the large end bearings being offset and have an "oil hole" near one rod bolt. The WC connecting rods are centered on both ends and do not have an "oil hole" near the rod bolt. The WC connecting rods are not "bent".

The IT Shop Manual states on page 19, Paragraph 93: "Connecting rods in B, C, CA, and RC are offset with respect to big end bearing; rods in WC, WD, WD45 and WF are straight." Futher states: "Iron pistons for WC, WD, and WF have pin bosses of unequal length; on aluminum pistons, bosses are of equal length." The connecting rod is NOT centered in the piston or between the bosses in the aluminum pistons in a WC engine. The iron pistons have the connecting rods centered in the offset piston pin bosses resulting in the connecting rod NOT centered in the piston. If the connecting rods ARE centered in the pistons in a WC engine it will result in binding of the piston pin against the cylinder bore. If you get the engine together and to run this way it will be damaged "big time" (self destruct).

Correct, accurate, detailed procedures for assembling the connecting rods to aluminum pistons in a WC engine are given in the IT Shop Manual, page 19, paragraph 93, and shown in detail in figure AC 37 on the same page. Also note that connecting rods and pistons 1 and 3 for a WC engine are assembled one way (off center) and that connecting rods and pistons 2 and 4 for a WC engine are assembled differently (off center the opposite way).

My experience with WC and WD engines since 1973 supports and verifies the accuracy of the IT Shop Manual instructions.

Please be sure that you understand and follow the correct procedures before you assemble your WC engine.

Good luck and have fun with your WC Allis.

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Dick L

01-31-2007 12:32:02




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 Ya Gordon Your Correct in reply to Gordon in IN, 01-31-2007 11:59:08  
I so stated below my picture post that all wet sleeves are installed as I stated and I stand corrected on the rods and pistons. For some reason I did not read WC when I posted the pictures. I also stated the the rods were not the exact same. I have only taken pictures of the B"s C"s and CA"s in Alis Chalmers. I normally do not post anything other than the ones I have pictures for. My mistake.



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Dick L

01-31-2007 07:39:18




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 Re: more wc overhaul questions. in reply to Rosco Sywter, 01-30-2007 19:34:03  
You just have to get down in the block and remove the dirt/crud/material until the new sleeve with out the o rings turn by hand 360 degrees by hand. The picture below shows the tool I use but an electric drill will work also. The new sleeve could be by chance a coulpa thousands larger in diameter than the old sleeves but still need to turn by hand when installed (without) o rings.
third party image

You could try to measure the distance on each rod down inside the piston but it is not necessary. The way I do it is to place the rod in a vice, I place the pin thru the piston and the rod, I take one hand and hold the ends of the pin so that it has as close to the same distance in from both sides of the piston. Still holding the pin in place I put a socket on the lock stud and eyeball the rod to the center of the pin and tighten the stud. That will be close enough. If you look at the rod on the left in the picture below you will see that the rod in manufactured with the proper offset.

third party image

You can click on the link and look thru the pictures if it will help.

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Dick L

01-31-2007 09:27:28




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 The Pictures Are Not WC Pix in reply to Dick L, 01-31-2007 07:39:18  
The process is the same for all wet sleeve engines. Rods are not the exact same as the picture.



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Texas Denny

01-31-2007 06:37:39




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 Re: more wc overhaul questions. in reply to Rosco Sywter, 01-30-2007 19:34:03  
Do the old sleeves (without o-rings) slip in without force? I always worked on the sleeves and block (cleaning) until they would go in without force. There should not be any interference with the metal. If the old ones go in easily, I would get a good micrometer and measure the diameter of the sleeve (old and new), and a bore mic and measure the inside diameter of the block. Before suggesting a fix, I'd like to know what is different between the sleeves and the block bore at top and bottom. Those six (top and bottom of old and new and block) numbers should suggest a direction to go. Be sure to measure the block and old sleeves in several positions to detect high spots.

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bjb in Ne

01-31-2007 04:59:45




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 Re: more wc overhaul questions. in reply to Rosco Sywter, 01-30-2007 19:34:03  
I didnt replace the sleeves in my WC but as far as the pistons go there shouldnt be an off set in the pistons, because the connecting rod is bent accordingly. (the numbers on the connecting rod have to face a certian way). I think the I&T manual goes into detail on the proper way to get the pin centered in the connecting rods. I think it involves pressing the pins into the pistons while the pistons are on their side with the conecting rod hard to one of the bosses, possibly using a small washer spacer as well.

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Aaron SEIA

01-31-2007 13:20:45




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 Re: more wc overhaul questions. in reply to bjb in Ne, 01-31-2007 04:59:45  
The connecting rod is NOT bent. You have to follow the procedure laid out in the I&T manual. Should also be with the pistons if you got new ones. Pretty straight forward. Just hold the rod tight to one side or the other to get the correct offset.
Aaron SEIA



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bjb in Ne

01-31-2007 14:08:00




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 Re: more wc overhaul questions. in reply to Aaron SEIA, 01-31-2007 13:20:45  
You said the connecting rods were not 'bent', but there are not straigth either....'offset' perhaps would be a better word



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Aaron SEIA

01-31-2007 14:58:39




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 Re: more wc overhaul questions. in reply to bjb in Ne, 01-31-2007 14:08:00  
If they are offset it is nowhere close to the 1/4" or so they need to be. I've done 3 of the W series engine and all 3 had to have the pistons offset on the rod.
Aaron SEIA



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