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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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AC B Steering Gear Oil Pump

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Brandon P. Webe

12-23-2006 12:18:12




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OK, you guys have always helped me out before, so here's hoping to keep the trend alive. I've got an older B/C (Don't ask, it's been pieced together alot!) that I'd like to rebuild the oil pump on. It starts out with OK oil pressure, but drops off the gauge after a few short minutes. Does anyone know what parts I'd need, or how to go about it? My I&T manual is virtually useless on this one. Also, the steering gear is very bad. I can turn the wheel almost 3/4 turn before it starts to move. I can turn right fairly well, but left is a pretty sorry sight. I believe it's a Gemmer type gear. Anyone know of any used, but good ones around, or know how to rebuild it. As always, thanks for your help.

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chalmersbob

12-25-2006 08:34:32




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 Re: AC B Steering Gear Oil Pump in reply to Brandon P. Weber, 12-23-2006 12:18:12  
the main bearings are not presurized on a b. they are fed off of the cam, dripping



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Texas Denny

12-24-2006 06:49:22




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 Re: AC B Steering Gear Oil Pump in reply to Brandon P. Weber, 12-23-2006 12:18:12  
Old is right on about oil pressure. Ater you get the correct oil filter (not paper but filled with white fiber and a round stick in the middle to keep it open for the tube on the filter holder). I've a note that says Fram 159. Do you have the tube on your filter holder? No oil pressure without it.

I doubt very much that rebuilding the oil pump will be any value.

Steering just wears out. It can be improved in some cases. There are three areas for slop. Area 1 is the gear box under the gas tank. There is an adjustment on the the right side of this box that may help tighten the box.

Area two is the ball joints on the steering arm.` They aren't easily repairable. I cut the end off mine and replaces with Ford tie rod ends - works great.

Area three is the pinion and gear under the radiator. I improved mine by removing a couple of shimsbetween the pedastle and the gear box. And I rotated the steering gear 180 degrees which essentially gave new teeth in the work area.

Areas 1 and 3 are covered quite well in the IT manual (except for the gear rotation).

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Brandon P. Weber

12-24-2006 10:03:12




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 Re: AC B Steering Gear Oil Pump in reply to Texas Denny, 12-24-2006 06:49:22  
Yes, I have the correct Fram oil filter in place, the stick has been removed, and the tube is on the oil filter mount. Oil pressure starts out fine, then drops to unreadable on the gauge after a period of time. Period of time depends on how hard I'm running it. Just pulling trees our or towing a trailer, maybe 15-20 minutes. Pulling a plow or brush-hogging, maybe 3-5 minutes before it drops. Why don't you think it'd do much good to rebuild?

Regarding steering, I've got no steering components under the radiator. All linkages come down the left side of the tractor and goes directly to the left front tire. Ball joints are all good (at least, no slop). Thanks for the info, I finally found the section in the IT manual. Any suggestions on what to use for shims? I think I'll need a few.

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Texas Denny

12-24-2006 10:39:21




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 Re: AC B Steering Gear Oil Pump in reply to Brandon P. Weber, 12-24-2006 10:03:12  
Well, filter sounds good. What weight oil are you using. Tractor was designed for 30 straight weight. I run 20W50 in my C and works fine. I don't think rebuilding would help a lot because it is a gear pump. They are might hard to wear out. When You pull the pan, you might discover sluge that is restricting flow to the pump dip tube. Or your cam bearing could be worn out. Should make a little noise if that is the case.

Your right. You said B and I was thinking C which has a lot of common components. You need to figure out where the slop is. If your ball joints are tight, it has to be either the lever that connects to your left wheel or the steering case. The steering case is most likely since people seldom lubricated this gear box. Again, there is an adjustment on this case for backlash but you may need to do a total disassembly of the case to get the adjustment to work. Or the gears may be worn so much that the adjustment no longer helps. With a B, there is no shim adjustment like the narrow front C.

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Dick L

12-24-2006 13:01:46




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 Merry Christmas Denny in reply to Texas Denny, 12-24-2006 10:39:21  
When you find a gear pump in any of the B"s, C,s, CA"s or any of the D-12"s thru the D-15"s please send me a picture.

I have the D series pumps in the B and C that I pressured the rod bearings by drilling the crankshaft. Even though they are a higher volume (vane) pump they have the same mounting bolt pattern as in the drawing below.



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Texas Denny

12-24-2006 13:54:12




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 Re: Merry Christmas Denny in reply to Dick L, 12-24-2006 13:01:46  
Dick, you are correct. It is a vane pump. I suppose the vanes could be worn out. But wouldn't it have trouble with staying primes if that were the case? Th B and C do have a priming problem if they are allowed to dry out -- setting a long time or occasionally on a rebuild.



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Dick L

12-24-2006 14:25:10




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 Not Necessarily in reply to Texas Denny, 12-24-2006 13:54:12  
If the pump is wore into the cover some it will not suck air into the system to allow the oil to drain back down into the pan. It will spin without pushing all the oil thru the pump. I have seen the same thing happen when some have rebuilt or at least re gasketed the pump and put the thick gasket under the cover rather than the thin one. I have no idea the exact problem with this tractors oil pressure but the pump would be a place to start after the engine is unbolted from the torque tube. If it is not the pump it will still have to be removed before the cam is pulled out to check the cam bearings. What ever is decided it will not be good to continue to run it with out oil pressure.

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Dick L

12-24-2006 10:37:53




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 Re: AC B Steering Gear Oil Pump in reply to Brandon P. Weber, 12-24-2006 10:03:12  
A person can not be sure where you are loosing your oil pressure without checking several points. After you have checked that you are not loosing oil pressure from the filter the only other place you could check without removing the engine would be the main bearings by removing the main bearng caps and checking with plastigage or seeing that the bearing inserts are chewed up and need replaced anyway. After the engine is removed the oil pump can be accessed and checked but the cam should be removed and the cam bearings checked at this time.
In the picture I posted or the pump cover that was cut real deep the cam beqrings were bad as well.

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Dick L

12-24-2006 06:47:23




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 Chech Your Filter First in reply to Brandon P. Weber, 12-23-2006 12:18:12  
Look at the pictures below if the filter is not the problem. You must have the proper gasket under the pump cover when rebuilding the oil pump.

third party image

third party image

The cover on the right is in need of resurfacing. The cover on the left has been resurfaced.
I have found the check ball in the stem to be rusted with pits and needed to be replaced. The spring is sometimes rusted and weak.

If they pump at all I have not found the vanes or vane springs to be bad. That does not mean the the vanes in your pump is not a problem. They always need to be checked.

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old

12-23-2006 14:02:05




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 Re: AC B Steering Gear Oil Pump in reply to Brandon P. Weber, 12-23-2006 12:18:12  
First off do you have the correct oil filter on it. Theres some filters that don't work well on the A/C tractor and cause that type of problem. Also I have parts for the Cs and have a couple parts engines laying around that might have a good oil pump on them or at least some good parts



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TxAllisMan

12-23-2006 17:34:01




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 Re: AC B Steering Gear Oil Pump in reply to old, 12-23-2006 14:02:05  
Change the filter first as Old suggested. Mine was doing the same and after changing the filter it cured the problem



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