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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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battery

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big hunter

11-02-2006 05:50:37




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I have a CA battery is dead, can't bump start tractor because the mower is down on the ground. How do I tell if it is a 6 volt or 12 volt battery and or system. I guess if I could start it I could check to see what volts the alternator is putting out, but I can't...thanks




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John T (Motor direction)

11-05-2006 06:42:04




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 Re: battery in reply to big hunter, 11-02-2006 05:50:37  
Big Hunter, A 6 volt battery has 3 cells while a 12 volt battery has 6. Does it have 3 (6 volt) or 6 (12 volt) single fill caps??? Even on batteries that have one or two larger caps that cover more then a single cell, if you remove that cap you see how many cells are under it, PIECE OF CAKE TO DETERMINE..... .... Or else place a volltmeter on it, a full charged good 6 volt batetry should measure around 6.3 volts while a 12 volt battery 12.6.

If it reallyyyyy y ?? has an alternator versus a generator theres a darn good chance its 12 volt and also its most likely negative ground.....

NOWWWWW WWWW there appears to be some confusion below regarding the direction of rotation in DC motors. On smaller "permanent magnet" motors if you reverse polarity THEY TURN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS cuz the current flow direction and resultant electromagnetic North/South polarity changes in the armature, BUT NOT in the fixed permanent magnet Field. HOWEVER in a typical larger higher torque car or tractor starter motor, they ARE NOT permanent magnet motors, but instead use current in the field windings to create the electromagnetic Field. ON THOSE THEY TURN THE SAME DIRECTION REGARDLESS OF POLARITY

THE REASON so is the "permanent magnet" motor has a fixed North/South magnetic polarity (its like a regular magnet) making up the magnetic Field in which the armature rotates, while in the electromagnetic field DC motor (car or tractor) the direction of current flow through the Field windings determines the resultant magnetic North/South polarity in which the armature rotates. Buttttt ttttt even if you reverse polarity you reverse the current flow (and resultant magnetic polarity) in BOTH the Field and Armature so the magnetic attraction and repulsion (which causes rotation) forces remain the same n she still turns the same direction regardless. If you wanna reverse direction in those motors (make it a reversible motor) you have to physically swap ends of ONLY ONE winding so the curent flow and resultant magnetic polarity is reversed and then it turns the opposite direction GET IT ????? ????? ??

Im a lil rusty on DC motor theory but fairly sure this is correct, my old buddy and still practicing engineer Gerald J is very good on DC motor theory, so if I misspoke I hope he can correct me.

Best wishes yall n God Bless

John T Longgggg g retired n a lil rusty engineer

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steve(ill)

11-04-2006 17:16:44




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 Re: battery in reply to big hunter, 11-02-2006 05:50:37  
Charlie, a normal DC motor has a permanent magnet inside. if you switch the cables, then it truns the other direction. The starter motors work different. It always turns the same direction, dont care how the cables are connected. This works out very well as you can connect it to 6 or 12 volts, positive or neagative ground. ALWAYS goes the same way.



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steve(ill)

11-04-2006 17:16:27




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 Re: battery in reply to big hunter, 11-02-2006 05:50:37  
Charlie, a normal DC motor has a permanent magnet inside. if you switch the cables, then it truns the other direction. The starter motors work different. It always turns the same direction, dont care how the cables are connected. This works out very well as you can connect it to 6 or 12 volts, positive or neagative ground. ALWAYS goes the same way.



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phil(va)

11-04-2006 05:36:29




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 Re: battery in reply to big hunter, 11-02-2006 05:50:37  
You can jump it off a 12 volts JUST LIKE WILD BILL said, no matter what voltage the tractor battery is. Then when it's running put a voltmeter on the battery and see what voltage you have for next time. (I'm assuming you can't do that now because the voltage is so low you couldnt tell.) One thing I do differently than Wild Bill is I connect one cable to the starter volt and just touch the other cable to a good ground, rather than reverse of that as he said. Sometimes if you touch a cable to the starter bolt it will spark and create a little wear on the bolt.

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charlie free

11-04-2006 04:33:17




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 Re: battery in reply to big hunter, 11-02-2006 05:50:37  
Ok, I guess I will believe that, but every DC motor I have seen will rotate one way or the other depending on which way the DC flows. Experience says you're right, but if it did go the other way, the bendix wouldn't engage due to its thread direction. Now I can't remember if it has a solenoid activated bendix, and if so, it really wouldn't matter. But I have a very hard head, I would still like to see it.

Charlie

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old

11-05-2006 07:40:11




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 Re: battery in reply to charlie free, 11-04-2006 04:33:17  
See John-Ts post he expalins it well as to the why and how. Since starter motors are not normal DC motors they don't work like the common DC motor.



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charlie free

11-02-2006 19:46:51




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 Re: battery in reply to big hunter, 11-02-2006 05:50:37  
If the comment about polarity was referring to electrons not caring what color the jumper wire is, I agree. But if you hook your source of good power, like your car/truck/whatever backwards to the tractor, the starter motor is going to turn the engine over the wrong way. Hooking batteries up backwards may lead to a nice explosion or explosive rupture of the case and acid over you and everything else.

Charlie in NC

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old

11-02-2006 19:50:41




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 Re: battery in reply to charlie free, 11-02-2006 19:46:51  
Charlie, sorry but your wrong. NO matter which way a battery is hooked to a starter it will ALWAYS turn the same way. So as far as a starter there is no worng way to hook a battery to it since it will only spin one way no matter what you do with the battery. Thats one reason its so easy to switch a tractor from - ground to + gorund. Either way the starter spins the way it needs to spin to start the engine

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oldcraneguy

11-04-2006 06:15:46




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 Re: battery in reply to old, 11-02-2006 19:50:41  
I just tried something on my old gas engine welder, I had to crank it anyways, been 7-8 months, I reversed the leads at the battery and the starter motor just spun without engaging, turned em round and the starter rolled the engine fine, theres no solenoid on the starer to engage the bendix so I think the direction does change with the polarity, at least on this engine (2cyl onan)..now I gotta go mess with it a bit and get it running... I think Ive seen starter motors turn the same way even when cables are reversed....Im cornfused

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old

11-04-2006 07:57:00




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 Re: battery in reply to oldcraneguy, 11-04-2006 06:15:46  
Those starters are nothing like starters on cars or trucks or tractors. They are baciclly simple DC motors and yes on that appalcation switch from + to - ground the motor will spin the wrong way but as I said they are a differant type of motor then a normal starter. Those are also a low torque motor. The windings are even done differant then a normal starter motor

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Bob

11-02-2006 08:31:31




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 Re: battery in reply to big hunter, 11-02-2006 05:50:37  
CURIOUS...

WHY can't you give the tractor a tug, just 'cause the mower is on the ground????



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old

11-02-2006 08:27:11




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 Re: battery in reply to big hunter, 11-02-2006 05:50:37  
Sounds like you don't know what is what on your tractor, not being mean just telling the truth. A 6 volt battery will have 3 holes in the top to fill with water and a 12 volt 6. Also a genny looks sort of like a starter as in its about the same diameter and about as long. An alternator will be about 6-8 inch in diameter and about 4-5 inch long and will be 12 volts and - ground. That said either way for a short time you can set a 12 volt battery on it just to get it to run but if its 6 volt you can't run it long that way with out maybe burning up the coil

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Will Herring

11-03-2006 09:02:46




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 Re: battery in reply to old, 11-02-2006 08:27:11  
It is my experience that a lot of 6 volt and 12 batteries don't even have holes in the top anymore, but the 8 volts do... I know that the 12 volt in my tractor is a solid top with the two posts, while grandpa's 8 volt has 3 or 4 holes on the top of it for water.

But the engine should always spin the same way... You could never make it spin backwards, as far as I know... It's only made to run one way. When the battery is the other way, it may not be a good or a safe or smart thing, but you're just swapping your ground out.

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Wild Bill

11-02-2006 06:44:11




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 Re: battery in reply to big hunter, 11-02-2006 05:50:37  
you can jump start either kind of battery with a 12 volt car or truck. Polarity doesn't make a hill of beans if you do it this way:

1. Make sure that the tractor is in NEUTRAL

2. Connect the jumper cables to the good battery

3. Make sure that the tractor is in NEUTRAL

4. Ground one cable to the tractor somewhere.

5. Hit the starter post with the other cable. It will crank when you hit the starter post as long as you have a good ground, and should start if every thing else is cool. 6. The tractor will run over you, possibly injuring or killing you if you try to do this with the tractor in gear. Please make sure that the tractor is in neutral!

The polarity of the jumper cables does not matter because electrons don't care which way they flow.

HTH
Bill

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souNdguy

11-02-2006 07:46:58




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 Re: battery in reply to Wild Bill, 11-02-2006 06:44:11  
If his battery is truly dead.. he'd better have a magneto.. If it is a battery ignition unit.. it would need some juice for the points.. etc.

I'm not sure what igniton was available for the ca.. perhaps both.. or a hybred.. etc.

Soundguy



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Wild Bill

11-02-2006 10:28:15




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 Re: battery in reply to souNdguy, 11-02-2006 07:46:58  
Sounder yes, thanks for the input, that is why I say "It will start if everything else is cool"

Have a great day!

Bill



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Dave Grubb

11-02-2006 06:03:46




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 Re: battery in reply to big hunter, 11-02-2006 05:50:37  
Look at the battery top and see how many caps or water fill ports there are. A battery has 2 volts per cell. 3 fill ports would be a 6 volt and 6 fill ports would be a 12 volt. If the tractor has an alternator on it it is probably a 12 volt system. If you plan on jump starting it be sure about the battery polarity; it could be positive or negative ground.



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big hunter

11-02-2006 11:16:02




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 Re: battery in reply to Dave Grubb, 11-02-2006 06:03:46  
Old, geesh a guy asked one question to make sure of something and he doesn't know "what is what" the battery is a maintence free battery....no caps/holes, yep I thought it was an alternator but wasn't sure if there were 6 volt alts or not. can't bump start it I'm by myself, unless I hook to it pull it then jump out and run back jump on the tractor to stop it after it starts....anyhow thanks for the info guys

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