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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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Gasket replacement

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kwahl1

08-23-2006 20:47:30




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When replacing these gaskets on the WF engine, is it Permatex you use or I've heard shellac? When do you use the permatex? When do you use shellac? I have the surfaces pretty clean and have a tube of blue permatex. How about the cork gasket on the valve cover?
Thanks again




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Ken L.

08-24-2006 16:35:59




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 Re: Gasket replacement in reply to kwahl1, 08-23-2006 20:47:30  
Best thing that I've found for head gaskets is Hylomar. It's a Permatex product. Works excellent on problem heads. I've used it on at least 50 head gaskets and have never had a problem. If you ever do have to pull the head, you'll know why it's so good. Read the instuctions with the gasket. Some instuctions say to never use any sealer on the head gskt.



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Butch(OH)

08-24-2006 08:41:05




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 Re: Gasket replacement in reply to kwahl1, 08-23-2006 20:47:30  
I differ on the silicone for a number of reasons. One being it squishes out, breaks off and "worms" of it end up in bad places like oil pick ups and passages no matter how little you use. The other reason is silicone is not only a sealer but a lubricant. Tightening down a gasket causes the it to be forced out sideways. This is a real problem with cork as you will find out if you smear it over the pan gasket on your WF motor. The trick to sealing up these older engines is to get the pans and covers flat and pulled bolt holes fixed, not gasket goop. Lay your valve cover on a flat surface with the gasket area down. It should sit reasonably flat, the gasket rails should be parallel with the surface. The bolt holes in the valve cover can"t be pulled down either as it wil not tighten. Fix found problems with a hammer, block of wood, pliers etc. Do the same thing with your oil pan, if over tightening has pulled the bolt holes knock them flat with the rail. This is best done on a big anvil or heavy steel bench. Once flat the valve cover and oil pan will seal pefectly with no silicone save a VERY small dab on the pan corners where the sides meet the end pieces. Stick the valve cover gasket to the cover with gasket CEMENT aka contact cement and use nothing on the head side and you will have no leaks plus will be able to remove the cover and reset your valves without ruining the gasket. Properly installing the oil pan and gaskets requires that you install the gasket ends in the pan first using provided clips. The ends will stick up, do not cut them off. Then use cement to stick the side pieces lapping them OVER the ends. At the ends of the side pieces where they pass over the ends is where you can use a small dab of silicone to insure a seal at the corners. An A-C service manual details all of this including checking and fixing the covers, a good investment.

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BCnT

08-24-2006 10:54:41




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 Re: Gasket replacement in reply to Butch(OH), 08-24-2006 08:41:05  
Butch,
i've seen the probs you speak of but when done rite silicone works ok...i very rarely buy cover gaskets anymore...just run a bead of silicone around and let it cure overnite...then bolt it up...havent had nary a prob with it oozing...plus it stays put and i've removed valve covers without it coming apart...main reason i use it is i live 12 miles east of BFE and hate to run to town everytime i need something.

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Dick L

08-24-2006 09:38:51




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 Probly Right Butch in reply to Butch(OH), 08-24-2006 08:41:05  
In the old days before non hardening permatex and silly cone we used grease on cork gaskets. However I have not had a problem with the silicone and I guess it is a lot like using a table saw. If you dont pay attention in how you use it you get yourself into a problem. All gasket sets I have purchased from AGCO has a tube of black silicone as part of the set. Some one should tell AGCO that adding silicone to their gasket sets is a bad thing.
I have used the silicone from the time it was put on the market but have always used it as I used the non hardening permatex.

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Butch(OH)

08-24-2006 10:33:08




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 Re: Probly Right Butch in reply to Dick L, 08-24-2006 09:38:51  
You would know a lot more about the old days than I do that's for sure ya old geezer, LOL. I will agree that the main problem with silly cone is abuse and that it can be a good crutch but it is an un-needed crutch if the surfaces are right. I get them right and leave the blue goo in the tubes where there is no chance it can do harm. The clothes pins are cute, how does the wife dry clothes when you are overhaulen motors?

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Dick L

08-24-2006 11:41:42




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 Basically I Dont Disagree in reply to Butch(OH), 08-24-2006 10:33:08  

What I should have said in the beginning was you must let silicone set up before adding pressure. I think it says something to that affect on the package or at least I was givin that information when Tag was a pup. You are correct in saying that if all surfaces are correct you do not need anything. That is how we had to look at reassembly when all we used was grease on a gasket. In saying that, how many non mechanics will know when both surfaces are correct enough for a gasket to seal properly by its self. When that happens the market for the silly cone will disapear.
How many times have you read where someone is installing rings and does not understand what ring gap is or why it is important.

Any engine I rebuild and assemble will have silly cone on most all gaskets and on tear down you will not find where it has contaminated the inside of the engine.

I am assembling an engine at preasent and will see if I can get Dixie to took a pitcher as she would say.{:^D

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kwahl1

08-24-2006 15:44:47




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 Re: Basically I Dont Disagree in reply to Dick L, 08-24-2006 11:41:42  
Opps. What ring gap? I should of asked that in the othe post



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Dick L

08-24-2006 18:21:44




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 Pictures To Help Later in reply to kwahl1, 08-24-2006 15:44:47  
Ok fella, dont take offense to what I was banterin about with Butch. Every one has to start some where and I had very good teachers back in the 1950"s that took time and show me and answer these kinds of questions. If you can give me a few days I will take my camera out to the shop and took some pitchers( as my Oki wife calls em) to show you what that means.
In the mean time here is a picture of a piston with stuck rings that I took out of a tractor and what you see is improperly installed rings and that is because the ring gap (space between the ends of the rings) was not stagered. I install rings with the ring gap 1/3 turn to each ring as I go down. I install rings bottom ring first and then the next one up. I then oil them dripping with motor oil and then stager the rings. Before I install any rings I first place them 1/4 ways down the sleeve with a piston to make sure they are in square and then measure the (ring gap)(space between the rings) with a feeler gage.

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kwahl1

08-25-2006 19:42:34




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 Re: Pictures To Help Later in reply to Dick L, 08-24-2006 18:21:44  
Dick L
Thanks for the pitchers (Oki) I haven"t got the rings yet but will refer back to this great tip. What you using to compress the ring to measure the ring gap? Hose clamp? Or a device like the small engine guys use? Got to find out about the sleeves. Someone suggested I replace the sleeves and I"m not sure how to do that. Knock from the bottom thru the top? Special tools? oversize? New pistons?

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Butch(OH)

08-24-2006 19:15:52




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 Re: Pictures To Help Later in reply to Dick L, 08-24-2006 18:21:44  
Dick, them rod nuts is either 1/2 or 9/16. I gotta socket wrench you can borrow too.

so you dont need to fetch that K-mart cresent wrench next time, Hee hee.



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Dick L

08-24-2006 08:14:41




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 Re: Gasket replacement in reply to kwahl1, 08-23-2006 20:47:30  
You do not need to use any thing on the head gasket if you are using a head gasket from a gasket set. Special head gaskets such copper gasket need to have a coating. The blue or black permatex is good for all your other gaskets. Use just a thin coat to keep it from squishing into the inside of the engine. Does not matter if you have a WF or an Oliver 99 the same applies.



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old

08-23-2006 21:10:05




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 Re: Gasket replacement in reply to kwahl1, 08-23-2006 20:47:30  
On a head gasket I use copper coat. If I use any thing on the valve cover I use silicone



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