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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas

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old

03-30-2006 13:39:34




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Well it runs good till I filled the colling system with water and then it filled #2 cylinder with water. No water in the oil, and no water in any of the other cylinders. So what did I do wrong or what is wrong with this engine?? Head gasket is new and thats the same cylinder I just put a sleeve in. Is it maybe leaking where the sleeve meets the top of the block??
Thanks

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Dick L

03-31-2006 13:58:01




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to old, 03-30-2006 13:39:34  
Looking at your picture, which can be deceiving, it looks as though number one cylinder or the one to the left is flush or below the block with the cylinder to the right being above the block. All should be about .003 above the block to seal properly. One cylinder above will hold the head away from the other ones. I am only guessing but you will probably have to remove the other three and clean under them. I have found when people unstick a stuck engine and try to turn the engine over with the head off that a sleeve will move up slightly and will not push back down in place without removing that sleeve and cleaning under the sleeve. I dont mean to beat a dead horse but this is the very reason that I take a stuck engine down to the bare block and build it back up. When buying a stuck tractor you will seldom get the true facts as to what was tried to get it unstuck before deciding to sell it.

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old

03-31-2006 14:07:20




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to Dick L, 03-31-2006 13:58:01  
#1,3,and 4 all sit just above the deck of the block like they should but #2 which is the one I put the sleeve in sits below the deck of the block which is where my problem is because that sleeve leaks water in to the #2 cylinder. I have since pulled all the sleeves from the donor engine and every sleeve sits below the deck of the block so I'm back to makeing a shim for that sleeve for things to work as they should. But in this area shim stock isn't to be found any where.

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Dick L

04-01-2006 06:13:46




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to old, 03-31-2006 14:07:20  
It sounds like some where in the history of your doner engine that the block was decked with the sleeves in place. If the doner block is not in real bad shape you might think about using it with the parts the from the engine you are now trying to get running to make one. Problem being you would need to make all sleeves the same. I keep rolls of shim stock in .001, .002, and .005 to cut shims from. I did try to shim a sleeve at the top with .001 and was not successfull. I admit that I thought it would not be and gave up before I completed it and stripped another block after the first try of keeping the shim in place. My problem was in the block and not the sleeve. If you do try to cut a shim you will want to cut the inside diameter first. You will have to measure good to get the correct thickness of shim stock and it sounds like you may be close to .005 thick which is easyer to keep in place that the thinner material.

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We'll do it again

03-30-2006 23:37:39




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 Pictures in reply to old, 03-30-2006 13:39:34  
I'll do it again, this way I do not have to leave my web mail open...

OK Rich, it will work now, so quit your whining...LOL Make you happy?

Keith & Shawn

third party image">Link

third party image">Link

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old

03-31-2006 07:14:35




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 Re: Pictures in reply to We'll do it again, 03-30-2006 23:37:39  
LOL, you knew I had to give you a hard time about that one. Thanks.



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Keith-OR

03-31-2006 10:06:55




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 Re: Pictures in reply to old, 03-31-2006 07:14:35  
Hey Rich, I wouldn't have post your pic's if you would LEARN how to do it. Relatively simple, like me, Just need to copy and paste from some place like click here and follow directions ...then paste into the Optional Image URL at bottom

OR write your message then...copy and paste into the following EX. just replace all the quotation marks ( and ) with < a rel="nofollow"nd >.

Example....(img src= picture URL)

LMAO...LMAO

Keith & Shawn

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Keith-OR

03-30-2006 19:52:28




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 Old's pic for Help in reply to old, 03-30-2006 13:39:34  
Ok. here you go Rich

third party image">Link


third party imageLink loading="auto" style="width:auto;height:auto">

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old

03-30-2006 20:13:03




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 Re: Old's pic for Help in reply to Keith-OR, 03-30-2006 19:52:28  
So wheres my pictures LOL. Guess you did some thing wrong LOL



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Yeppers

03-30-2006 23:15:17




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 Re: Old's pic for Help in reply to old, 03-30-2006 20:13:03  
Pictures are there as long as my webmail is open.

Hmmmmm..... . imagine that!!!



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Keith-OR

03-30-2006 22:42:52




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 Re: Old's pic for Help in reply to old, 03-30-2006 20:13:03  
Nope, did not do anything wrong, they were on there. if they weren't on preview I would not have posted them...I pulled them off my webmail. Maybe when I closed my webmail lost the link to them...HMMMMM .

Keith & Shawn



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Texas Denny

03-30-2006 15:14:08




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to old, 03-30-2006 13:39:34  
When a cylinder fills with water, there are three possible causes. Most likely it is a cracked head. Then a bad gasket (you just put in). And last is a cracked sleeve (very rare). I'd pull the head and have it pressure tested. The last head I had like this, I could actually see the crack.



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Keith-OR

03-30-2006 16:30:44




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to Texas Denny, 03-30-2006 15:14:08  
Hey Rich, go get some shim stock, use the simple school type compass scripe out a circle, inner and outer, then cut it out with a pair of scissors. Or---
Heavy tinfoil will work, aluminum foil. Then shellac them in place.HTH

Keith & Shawn



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old

03-30-2006 16:49:12




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to Keith-OR, 03-30-2006 16:30:44  
Shoot in this area shim stock it like tring to find hens teeth. I been thinking about useing a beer can -since its soft and then also glueing it with hi-temp silicone. Sure did up set me when it runs so well unless you want to have water in it LOL. By the way you have e-mail. I also tried to do the cut and paste thing but it didn't work oh well maybe one of these days Kim will make it easty to post a picture instead of haveing to be a rocket scientist to do it LOL

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old

03-30-2006 15:23:51




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to Texas Denny, 03-30-2006 15:14:08  
Texas, I found the problem and will post a picture in parts and pieces and maybe you can help more with this. Its a head gasket/sleeve problem. I pulled the head back off and found that water is comeing from where the sleeve and the top of the block meet. The sleeve is just a little lower then the top of the block and I guess the head gasket can't seal that gap. Its only enough to see. Maybe the thickness of thin cardboard but there a gap where the sleeve should be level with the block but it isn't it sits lower then the block. How do you fix that??
Thanks

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Texas Denny

03-30-2006 15:33:57




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to old, 03-30-2006 15:23:51  
That is odd. It seems to me that the sleeve is slightly higher than the block - 0.010 to 0.015. There is lip on the top of the sleeve and this lip is supposed to give the correct sleeve height. If it isn't, you'll need some kind of a shim in there to get the correct height. Or maybe a few spots of weld and then turn on a lathe to the correct height.

I wonder if the sleeve is from a much older or much newer tractor. Not encountered this problem.

The head gasket is supposed to keep water out of the cylinder. For it all to work correctly, I think the sleeve should be slightly higher and all must be the same.

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old

03-30-2006 15:40:35




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to Texas Denny, 03-30-2006 15:33:57  
Texas, Did you see the pictures. You can see what I'm talking about in at least one of them. I'm thinking about pulling it back out the sleeve that is and then useing silacone sealer to sort of glue the sleeve to the bolck. What do you think?? If I could find a brass washer that big around I would try that but I don't have a clue of where to even look. The C I'm working on is a 1946 but not sure what year the donor engine is. I do know the donor has stamped oil pan and valve cover where as this one has cast parts there.

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Texas Denny

03-31-2006 06:21:47




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to old, 03-30-2006 15:40:35  
Well, I'd say no to a sealer. It might work for a short time but would would fail quickly. If water is getting in the cylinder, the leak area is also exposed to the high pressures of combustion. The water would leak in when it is setting and combustion gas would be pushed into the water jacket when it is running. This usually means over heating.

That sleeve is setting too low. It looks like the sleeve to the right is above the block surface as it should be. That is the way Allis intended it. It requires a excellent seal to the sleeve because of combustion pressures. The water leaking is sort of a side effect because the cylinder isn't sealed. I'd pull that sleeve and get it out and inspect it. But before pulling it, measure how far the sleeve is below the surface of the block. Also measure how far above the block the other three are. I checked my manual and it says that the sleeves should be above the top of the block by 0.002 to 0.004 - I thought it was more than that. Adding these two measurements together is the amount that is missing from the bottom of the sleeve lip. I'd like to know how much that is before advising the next step. I'm leaning toward a shim but concerned about how small it would need to be.

Where did this sleeve come from? I wonder if the previous owner might have put the sleeve in a laythe and cleaned up the bottom of the lip. These things are supposed to be interchangeable. Unless, maybe this isn't from a C.

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old

03-31-2006 07:23:14




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to Texas Denny, 03-31-2006 06:21:47  
The sleeve came from another C I have. But its not the same year so that might be the problem or that sleeve maybe bad also. I'm thinking about pulling another sleeve from the donor engine and clean it up and see if they are all that way. I think I might be able to find one that will sit up aboue the block like it should. I'd put the origanal sleeve back in but its pretty ruff and I don't think I could hone out all the rust spots in it. At least now I have an idea of what is wrong and how maybe to fix it. I don't really want to use shims if I can help it.

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Larry in MO

03-30-2006 14:02:12




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to old, 03-30-2006 13:39:34  
Old; Sounds like it is a wet sleeve engine, and if so the new sleeve is leaking either top or bottom. That or you have a faulty head gasket. You can drop the oil pan and with agood light can probably see what the bottom of the sleeve looks like. At least you have the problem isolated, and don't have to look all over the engine. Good luck. Larry E.



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old

03-30-2006 14:20:37




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to Larry in MO, 03-30-2006 14:02:12  
The bottom of the sleeve isn't leaking but the top of the sleeve is. Now I just need to figure out how to fix that problem.



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Kim

04-04-2006 08:29:17




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 Re: Major Problems with this C and need help/ideas in reply to old, 03-30-2006 14:20:37  
Testing reply, please ignore.



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