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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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Longevity Question

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rboulware

02-23-2006 07:00:44




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If I had a D19 Gas that had a recent over haul OR an Engine that wasin REAL GOOD shape to start with. How many hours would you expect it to run before it would need another over haul? Giving that you do ALL the regular serviceing on it?




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John (MO)

02-24-2006 06:59:39




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 07:00:44  
I am an Allis fan. I own a D-19 gas tractor. The price you mention is high for your average D-19 gas tractor sold at auction in my area. The price you mention for the JD is much more inline for what I see tractors like that sell for. In my opinion, you will not be sorry if you pay the higher than average price for the AC. I believe they are worth that price, but the market in my area does not support my opinion. PLEASE, be sure that you know the transmission is good in the D-19. Too many people shifted these tractors using the power director rather than the clutch an it wore gears and shifter forks and now some of the tractors jump out of gear. This can be expensive to fix. If you were to pay top dollar for the D-19 and then were to find you need to work on the transmission, I don't think you would be a very happy camper. Make sure the brakes are good on the tractor, then drive it down a hill in each gear of the transmission. After the tractor builds up a little speed with the throttle pretty well open, quickly close the throttle. This will put a load on the transmission from the wheels forward and cause engine braking. If the transmission gears are worn bad or if the forks have not caused the gears to fully engage, this is when the transmission will jump out of gear. If she passes this test, you should have no problems with the transmission. If you go with the D-19 and need copies of ANY manuals, I've most likely got them. Good luck.

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rboulware

02-24-2006 07:52:55




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to John (MO), 02-24-2006 06:59:39  
Tell me how does this tractor hold up as far as HEAVY plowing over hilly ground?



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John (MO)

02-24-2006 09:05:07




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-24-2006 07:52:55  
Should be perfect. I don't really know what you mean by heavy plowing, it's a 5 plow tractor under many conditions, but 5 bottom plows aren't that easy to find. You can often get good 3 bottom plows for $150 or even a lot less. I got one for $35 a while back. So there isn't to much you can't plow with a D-19 pulling 3 or 4 bottoms. Someone mentioned that it maybe had a little high center of gravity. I've got 38 inch rubber on mine and if you've ever seen North MO you know we got some HILLS. I feel as comfortable on the D-19 as any tractor I've ever used on those hills. There don't seem to be too many narrow front D-19's so I assume the one you are looking at is a wide front. I don't have fluid or any front weights at all, and have no issues with it's stability. My father was killed in a tractor roll over on our farm years ago, so I think I am about as sensitive to those issues as anyone.

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allisj

02-24-2006 05:20:34




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 07:00:44  
2000 hours divided by 70 hours per year is a little more than 28 years, if you can not justify an overhaul after 28 years of faithful service by the tractor, any brand, you need to sell the farm and stay in town!! In that amount of time you will either be ready for another tractor, or the rest of the tractor will be wore out. We will then be talking about a 50+ year old tractor that has been used for 50+ years. I were you I would drive both tractors and pick the one you are most comfortable with. I would be concerned that this particular 4010 has no working gauges, this shows me the owner has the tractor to make a quick sale, or has owned it for some time and does not care about maintenance of the tractor. This makes me leary of that tractor. All brands have there good things and bad. It is important to pick one that seems to be well maintained, in good shape, suits your needs and most importantly feels right!!

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rboulware

02-24-2006 06:48:00




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to allisj, 02-24-2006 05:20:34  
Now that is good advice you and Hurst are pretty Good.
The John deere is at a dealer and they did the over haul. I ma not sure how this dealer got the tractor. It is just funny to me that they would OVER haul the engine and the transmision be low on oil....that really baffeled me. Then YOU HAVE to have some way of telling if you got oil pressure and if the tempurature is hot or not these two are important.

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John (MO)

02-24-2006 09:12:11




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-24-2006 06:48:00  
I would have to wonder why a dealer would overhaul a popular tractor like the JD and not fix up the little stuff that was wrong with it. Stuff like the gauges and maybe the paint. There are lots of green tractors like that, that people are asking quite a bit more for than this one. If he put another $1000 dollars into I would expect he could get $2000 more out of it. I'll have to admit though that a lot of business people do stuff I don't understand. Some of them don't seem to last too long, but a lot of others do. Really hard to second guess the situation, but it just raises a few questions in me.

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Hurst

02-23-2006 11:35:43




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 07:00:44  
A lot of factors come into play. There are other things that can go wrong that require an engine to be torn down, like an o ring on the sleeve going out or something that is minor like that that would require a whole teardown and rebuild of the engine. We had a D17 series 4 diesel that lasted from new until around 1999 or 2000 without an engine overhaul or any engine work that I was ever aware of. I would guess that the tractor had well over 10000 hours on it, since the tach was stuck at I think 9000 and something. A gas should last just that long if nothing freak goes on and the engine is not abused and everything is maintained, oil changed with good oil (doesn't mean name brand, but the correct oil for the weather and something that meets the gas specs). It also depends on how far one will take an engine before tearing it down. On our farm, we wait until the tractor won't run correctly. Last one that got an overhaul was a ford 6610 because it had a piston that had some heat damage (engine overheating somehow). It will last you a pretty long time. That 262 should outlast most other gas engines of that size, as it was a diesel engine with a lower compression head stuck on, carb, and distributer and spark plugs with a govoner bolted on the timing plate, and wahlah, it was a gas 262 (ok, so it was a little bit more complecated than that, but it is the same engine as the diesel on the inside, rods, pistons, sleeves, crank, just the head is different from what I understand, but someone correct me if I am wrong). Also, another factor is what the last owner did for an "overhaul". Some people call new rings an overhaul, which won't last as long as a new engine kit. It is hard to tell how many hours, but it is by no means a throwaway engine if that is what you are asking. Also, combine engines are pretty readily avalible for these tractors, so finding another engine if you ever really had a problem with this one would be pretty easy. I would just keep using it until it either looses oil pressure, makes weird noises, smokes excessively, doesn't have the power it should, or requires more than a quart or 2 added between oil changes. That is a hard question to put an exact number on. best of luck with it and hope it gives you a very long time of problem free use.

Hurst

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rboulware

02-23-2006 12:19:50




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to Hurst, 02-23-2006 11:35:43  
MAN!!! you always have the BEST help...Let me ask you your opinion on this. If you had JD 4010 with a rebuilt motor (new berings, rings, sleves and head work) and a Allis Gas 262 with the same of work done on it, which would YOU think would last longer?



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ricedaddy

02-23-2006 15:26:10




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 12:19:50  
The J Deere by far, the reason is how there are engineered. Plus when you go to sell it you will get your money back or more!



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Hurst

02-23-2006 14:52:48




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 12:19:50  
I don't have any experience with deere, so I would be more comfortable with an allis. Since the D19 is the base of my 7000 allis (Everything in the rearend is just bigger and heavier), I would feel comfortable with what is back there. The diesel 4010s I thought had some engine problems, but those may have been with the air filters deteriorating or something like that, don't remember. Is the 4010 a powershift or a syncro? The allis tranny is going to be a little more simple than the 4010 most likely, but it may require maintenance down the road if it is/was grinded into gear. How much do you plan on using the tractor and for what type of job. If you are going to be using it for tillage, heavy mowing, or something else with a lot of continuous powerdraw from the engine, a diesel will probably be better. Someone on here posted the Nebraska test results for the D19 gas, and it was a little over 11.5 hp hours per gallon (that is how much horsepower one gallon of gas will make for 1 hour). It was just a little lower than the D17 gas. I will say if that 4010 looks like crud, then chances are it was maintained like that too. I know a paint job is not everything, but sometimes, when buying, the best thing you can do to judge a book is to judge it by the cover, since you don't have all the time in the world to read some of it, or in this case, tear it down some and check tolerances. I felt comfortable with my tractor because it looked shed kept and just had some leaks, so I figured it had been maintained in the vital areas very well. I believe you said the 4010 was going to be around 5500 and the D19 like 4000 or 4500, and the D19 looked almost like new right? If that is the case, and the D19 looks really nice, I would say you will have a lot less money in it by the end. About fuel economy, think about the difference. The 4010 may save you 2 gallons and hour. That is about a 2 or 3 dollar difference. For 1500 dollars, that will take 750 to 500 hours to make up, but that is if it saves 2 gallons, which is probably not near what it will save you. Also, the D19 will use less oil per oil change too. From my experience, The allis tractors seem simpler and pretty solid, not saying deere is solid, but I know they had some problems with the electrical system and some other things. Big thing is, what are you going to use the tractor for and how much are you going to be using it a year do you think?

Hurst

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rboulware

02-23-2006 18:39:50




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to Hurst, 02-23-2006 14:52:48  
Another GOOD post I went to go see the Deere down the road in person. The Engine ran REALLY good, it did not even smoke. Usually a Diesel smokes a littel bit on start up, but this one did not. I drove it around just a littel though to see if any thing was obviuos. Seemed Mechanically sound.

AC D19 I am basicly taking a guys word for it. I saw his photos it looked REALLY nice. He SWARES by it also...The AC is $4,670 delivered to my door while the JD is $5,500.00 delivered.

The best case that I can give you is that I will be using it on weekends. Most likely 4 hours at a time, you got to figure there will be many times where I want even be out there on the land, the farm is about 60 miles away from my house. I work inside an office all day at a computer. Doing circuit design and writing code. So If I put 70 hours on this tractor a year I would be doing alot.

The very first thing I will need to do is bush hog this place. It has bushes and little trees EVERY where. It is not the most level terraine either I might add. I WILL need something with a low center of gravity as well. I don't know I am sort of back and forth right now.....The REAL answer is get BOTH!!!

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Hurst

02-23-2006 19:28:26




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 18:39:50  
Hey, get if you can afford it, get both for the fun of it. Never hurts to have 2 tractors so you can have one down and still be in business. Or have one in the city :D. Maybe you can get the deere and fix it up, use the 19 to work at first, then after the deere is done, you would have 2 good tractors. But that is just an option if you ever wanted to. A man can never have too many tractors. If you need something with a real low center of gravity, the D19 may be a little high, depends on the tires it has. If it has 18.4 34, it should be pretty sure footed, but I would never want to have to test that out. With either tractor, you will need to be careful, I am not sure about the 4010, but it looks pretty close to the same height and all. Still, be careful no matter which one you choose. Like I said on the other post, I don't like the fact that the 4010 has no working guages, that kind of makes me worry some, and would make me worry just as much if it was hte D19 without the guages. Good luck

Hurst

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rboulware

02-23-2006 11:17:22




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 07:00:44  
Well the John Deere people claim that a 4010 would run 5,000 to 6,000.
But you all claim that the allis olny would run uppwards to 2500 to 3000 hours...what give are they streching things a bit?



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Hurst

02-23-2006 17:18:15




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 11:17:22  
I forgot to say that allis had the best cast parts of any tractor company out there. They did much more research on their cast metal material than JD ever did. You are talking about the same company who powers a lot of Las Vegas with their turbines in the Hoover Dam. Allis was in no way a tractor behind its time and low in quality. They were straight forward, strong built, and built to last. I am pretty sure that the D19 can last over 5000 hours without an engine overhaul if it is used fairly often, oil is changed, and it is not abused. I will admit that I am partial to allis, but in this case, if the rough tractor costs more than the nicely redone tractor, then I would go with the nicely redone in most cases. Resale on the 4010 may be higher than the D19, but to get anything good for resale, you will have to fix her up quite a bit by the sound of it. A good paint job alone can run over 1000 dollars easily. Best thing to do, go to the place with the 4010, drive it around, see if they will let you test it out in the field. Then go to the place with the D19 gas, do the same, drive it around, try to get it out in the field some. Then after that, if none of them are leaking, showing any signs of future problems or have any problems, pick the one that you felt drove the best, the one that you would want to sit on for how ever many hours a day you will be sitting on it. That is the important thing. I would never buy a tractor that I have not been able to drive. I want to make sure I will be comfortable. With that said, make sure everything like the seat, pedals, steering wheel, are all in good shape or else you won't be able to get a good idea of which one you like better. That is my best advice. I could go on saying reasons allis would be a better choice in my opinion, and someone else could come right back and say why deere is better and rip me to shreds, so the only way I can help you choose is to tell you it is time for a test drive. You don't buy a car without a test drive, why buy a tractor without one. Chances are, once you buy it, you will be stuck with it for a while unless there are some avid antique tractor collectors in your area. The market doesn't seem to be up enough for people to be buying these tractors right now unless they are doing it for a hobby. Good luck and take em for a spin. Let me know what you think of each of them. Also, try the allischalmer(dot)com forum for questions about the D19. There are people over there that own/have owned both a D19 and some deeres and they will be able to give you a straight forward answer. Also, what are you planning on doing with the tractor?

Hurst

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dairyman

02-23-2006 15:58:11




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 11:17:22  
the JD people are right about the longevity of the Deere's but I thing that the Allis chalmers fans are bieng a bit conservative The allis chalmers tractors that i have have more hours than my john deere and they do not need an overhaul yet the allis chalmers 190 has 9000 hrs on it and the engine has not been touched yet while the john deere has 4500 hrs and is going to need an overhaul shortly. just my expirience.

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RustyFarmall

02-23-2006 08:35:20




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 07:00:44  
I would think you Allis-Chalmers guys would be a bit more optimistic. An IH or JD of the same era would be expected to run at least 3,000 hours between rebuilds, and 5 to 6,000 hours if those tractors were used lightly. Allis built good tractors, the longevity of their engines should be right up there with the other colors.



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Eldon (WA)

02-23-2006 08:19:45




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 07:00:44  
If you look at it from another point of view, car engines from that era rarely went over 100k miles. 120k miles @ 60mph would be the same as 2000 hours. Tractor engines see a lot more heavy work and are subject to dusty conditions. Of course there are exceptions to every case.



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John (MO)

02-23-2006 07:50:11




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 07:00:44  
SO many things that could come into play there. I"d guess about 2000 hours, give or take 1800.



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rboulware

02-23-2006 08:03:40




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to John (MO), 02-23-2006 07:50:11  

man that is ALOT shorter than I thought!! Iwas expecting at least 7500 hours!!



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John (MO)

02-23-2006 08:47:04




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 08:03:40  
I'm sure there are 7500 hours engines, but those would be exceptions. I believe for an engine to really reach out there for big numbers as far as hours go, it needs to be used very regularly and really taken care of. By that I don't mean an average of 4 hours a week. I feel you are more likely to get long hours out of an engine that is use more like 6-8 hours a day, and with oil and filters that are changed more often than the mfg recomends. You let a tractor engine set for 3 weeks in a row sometimes and you are going to get rust starting to form and the oil is going to pick up moisture. Every time this happens it is worse than putting hundres of hours on the engine. I think the best bet is that up to a reasonable point, the faster the hours are put on, the more total hours you should expect to get.

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rboulware

02-23-2006 07:47:34




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 07:00:44  
I guess what is the life of the 262 buda gas engine if it is taken care but run some what hard...This THE most important Question Ihave asked thus far...Please some one give their opinion and their experiance



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R2D2

02-23-2006 07:25:03




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 Re: Longevity Question in reply to rboulware, 02-23-2006 07:00:44  
no percist amount of time, only an estimate of expected life and that can vary depending on use and maintenance.



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