Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Attention Forum Users: On the 28th of December 2023 at 9:00am Central Time, we will be taking the forums down for maintenance while we prepare the new forums for your use. Please click here for more information.

Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
:

Resistor for 12 volt conversion

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
GarstGuy

02-06-2006 10:58:06




Report to Moderator

What Ohm resistor should I use with the WD engine. I have a 12 volt Coil but I think I still need a Resistor. Where whould I get such an animal?
Thanks.




[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
DouginOR

02-11-2006 09:08:03




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to GarstGuy, 02-06-2006 10:58:06  
The real value, ohmwise, is about 1.7 ohms. If you measure across the terminals on your coil and get about 1.5 ohms, you need a ballast. If you measure about 3.5 ohms, no ballast is needed. You will not be able to read these values with and kind of accuracy with a cheap ohmmeter, though. Many 12 volt coils do not need a resistor - they have one built-in. I"ve heard of some "true 12 volt" coils with no ballast inside or out, but to do that, you either need to use a primary wire that is more resistive (same thing as an internal resistor, yes?), or double the turns on the primary. Doubling the turns halves the output voltage. Again, you are back to where you started. I would also presume that doubling your turns increases the inductive kick considerably, making it necessary to use a larger condensor.

Personally, I"d either buy a coil with an internal ballast - it makes for a cleaner installation, or just go to NAPA and ask for a ballast resistor for an old MOPAR.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

02-11-2006 13:28:37




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to DouginOR, 02-11-2006 09:08:03  
Probably ought to brush up on that electrical theory a bit. Ohm value of a wire, while it is dependent on length.. and composition, is also dependent on specific gauge, at a predetermined length.....No need to 'double' the turns, when you can use the same amout of turns.. and simply use a thinner wire to get that correct primary resistance.

I think you will be very hard pressed to find any modern coil manufacturers that are actually including a resistive element inside the coil case, vs just using some math to determin correct primary length and diameter wire. I suspect you may find some specialty / vintage/or repro stuff that may incorporate a resistive element.. but would believe that to be the exception, not the rule.

The coil I posted about, a napa ic14sb, contains no resistive element. It simply has the correct turns and wire diameter for the correct ohm/impeadance value. Plenty of surplus high voltage there, especially when you look at what voltage the spark will jump the gap.. lots of built in 'tolerance' for wear and tear down the road, without loosing sparkies, vs a stock 6v system.... I.e. using the specs for the 6v system, pluigs, and point gaps.. the 12v setup should function better with the same amount of wear and tear on a given stock 6v setup. Where the corrosion and wear may lower the votlage output below a suitable level giving you intermittant missfires and poor spark, the 12v setup will be producing excess (unutilized potential ) and that will come into play inthe form of better spark quality under the same corrosion/wear conditions as a similar 6v setup. Most of theis is determined by spark gap, and compression ratio, and at what potential buildup the spark needs to reach before it will jump the gap.

Soundguy

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
DouginOR

02-12-2006 09:33:34




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to souNdguy, 02-11-2006 13:28:37  
You've just said what I stated. You say going to thinner wire will make it more resistive. I stated that one needs to make the wire more resistive. Same difference. In any event, allowing wore current through the primary winding will do one or both of the following: It will pass too much current through the points - shortening their life. Or it will pass too much current through the coil - allowing the coil to run too hot. And before you start to diss my theory knowledge, let us see what licenses you have? I've passed every written theory exam the FCC offers and I licenses (4) to show that. I also have a CET certificate from a well-known private certifying agency. I am not throwing darts for answers and allowing preconceived notions to color my answers. Furthermore, I am not swayed by the marketing hype of some coil manufacturer. I could care less if one uses a 12 or a 6 volt coil. I am just stating the facts.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

02-13-2006 05:20:22




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to DouginOR, 02-12-2006 09:33:34  
First.. I do hold some valid FCC licenses myself.. and I've had my ticket for a while now. I've had my hands on probes from back when a simpson was a common shelf vom, and you could get your tubes tested at walgreens.

As for the marketing hype on the coil.. I agree.. that's why i took the 3 months of searching to get some engineering info from the coil manufacturer.. not some BS that the rep or dealer is spouting about.

As far as primary current? I'm not sure what direction you are goin here... If you have a more resistive primary winding due to the thinner wire.. primary current will drop.. not rise...

Seems like people try to oversomplicate a simple breaker ignition circuit. Just find the target current value for the points.. as a variable.. get your ignition primary voltage, as a constant, and then get your ignition coil to match. You can get as fancy as you want with the math.. tune circuit.. tank... etc.. don't matter much if you want to look at it as an impeadance issue, or a straight dc ohms issue.. There's been nothing new under the sun on points technology in a while. You might find better materials and manufacturing process.. but considering stuff like this gets outsourced to cheapes country they can find.. not sure if that ends up being a positive bonus here.. especially since you can find complete bad batches of condensors by box.. etc.

The issue I was trying to convey, is thatif a person is running a 12v electrical system, he might as well use a real 12v coil, and not a 6v coil with a resistor inline. He will have more built in fault tolerance with the 12v equipment... 'Bout the only reason i can see not to do that is from what "old" brought up... money.. etc.

Soundguy

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

02-09-2006 05:39:33




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to GarstGuy, 02-06-2006 10:58:06  
Don't play-baby around with 6v coils and power wasting resistors.. get the real deal is you have a 12v system.

A NAPA IC14SB is a read deal 12v coil.. it costs a whopping 14$.

If you still want to play around with a 6v coil and a resistor, I can tell you that an 8NE10306 will work.. That is the resistor we ford people use in some conversions for the front mount coils, for which there are no true 12v coils available.

Soundguy

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Glider

02-11-2006 06:54:13




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to souNdguy, 02-09-2006 05:39:33  
I have a wd 45 12volt with 6volt coil and ballast . So do I just go get a 12volt coil and bypass ballast? Mine works but coil has been beat with a hammer for some reason ,cant stand looking at it any more.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

02-11-2006 13:18:30




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to Glider, 02-11-2006 06:54:13  
If it's a common 'round' coil, and is 6v, using a ballast resistor, on a 12v system, then yes, you can go get a real 12v coil.. like a napa ic14sb and replace the coil, and take the ballast out of the system. If the old 6v coil and ballast are still serviceable, toss them in a plastic bag and set on the shelf for a rainy day when you might need them.

Soundguy



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

02-09-2006 10:47:53




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to souNdguy, 02-09-2006 05:39:33  
Hi again SoundGuy, seems like we had a similar fun discussion with Texas Denny a while back on this same subject??? I agree a full 12 volt coil would be the way to go VERSUS any 6 volt plus ballast for all the reasons we spoke of before. I think I dug up some Kettering Ignition Theory after that if I can locate it again??? Wheres Denny so we can all feud again lol

Take care yall

John T

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

02-09-2006 10:57:03




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to John T, 02-09-2006 10:47:53  
For the applications where people are lucky enough to be able to use a non-specialty coil.. i can't for the life of me understand why they want to use a 6v coil and a resistor.. etc..

Soundguy



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
old

02-09-2006 11:41:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to souNdguy, 02-09-2006 10:57:03  
Sound, not all people can just go out and buy a new coil, that is 12 volts but want to have 12 volt start. I do a lot of this type thing for other people and they want to keep it cheap. Thats why a lot of them I do have a dodge ballast resistor installed in the system. Cost about $2-3 over $20 plus depending on where you get a new 12 volt coil. A lot of time its just plain a matter of the $$$



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

02-09-2006 12:00:06




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to old, 02-09-2006 11:41:27  
If someone is converting to 12v.. then they are either getting a genny re-wound and a new vr.. or they are getting an alternator ... A napa 12v coil is 14$... that's 11$ over the price of the ballast resistor you mention... not to mention the 80$?? dollars for the genny work, and another 25-40$ for the regulator?.. or the 25$ junkyard alternator / 50-100$ auto store alternator.. etc.

If 11$ over the other conversion prices makes or brakes the person who is converting their tractor.. maybee they need to set back and re-evaluate a few things. 11$ is a couple packs of decent smokes, or a couple mixed drinks.. couple 6packs of busch.. etc..

As for 20+ dollars for a 12v coil.. I plain wouldn't spend it... since the napa coil is 14$... napa is in lots of places... also.. there are other manufactureres coils that will fit. TSC has a few real 12v coils on the shelf.. doesn't matter that they are for IH tractors... they will fit and are under 20$... etc.
Just got to find a tractor that was oem 12v and dind't spec a ballast resistor. A late 1966 IH cub or other IH products for instance, after they went 12v.. etc.

Soundguy

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
old

02-09-2006 12:38:11




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to souNdguy, 02-09-2006 12:00:06  
Well Sound you sort of right but also wrong. LOL In my area theres ONE parts store, next nearest is 25 miles away, but the same company. The last coil I got was $20 plus. As far as alternators well most pick them up in this area from junk GM cars and cost is maybe $5 if even that much. You have to remember a lot of poeple have tractors but not a lot of Bucks to spend on them. Most people in my area have a tractor to bruch hog with and just want them to run when they need them but don't have the money to do a lot to them. This is a summer touriest area and this time of year 50% of the poeple live on unemployment because there just isn't any jobs to be had.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

02-09-2006 12:51:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to old, 02-09-2006 12:38:11  
Maybee when those people snatch that 5$ junkyard alternator they need to snatch the 12v coil setting next to it ?? And solve 2 problems with 1 snatch so to speak.... Lots of 80's era gm vehicles that use a real 12v coil... even if it is a little wider.. no matter..

Soundguy



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
old

02-09-2006 13:06:37




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to souNdguy, 02-09-2006 12:51:32  
Yep I understand that idea but most don't have a clues when it comes to knowing what they need to do the job and then they see Joe down the road and see that good old ballast resister and then they know they need one and you know how it goes from there. Or in other words I do it they way they want me to and I just make sure it works as it should. Now when I do one I do the ballast resister also because if I didn't I would have 6 volt coils running out my ears and doing no good. So I use them till I need to replace them then good with the 12 volt coil. Thats like a lot of people like the light bulb way and me I never use that way I do the diode.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

02-09-2006 19:39:24




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to old, 02-09-2006 13:06:37  
Adding the resistor in the beginning, to just get it going and then later changing out to a full 12v coil aint so bad I guess.

Soundguy



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
old

02-09-2006 19:56:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to souNdguy, 02-09-2006 19:39:24  
It also fits in to something I believe in. Its caleed. Waste not, want not. And I try to live by that rule and use all sorts of stuff most would just throw away. I have 2 buildings that I put up with stuff I slavaged or was given to me. Between the 2 of them I have less then $400 in them and I couldn't replace them for less then around $10,000 each.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Butch(OH)

02-08-2006 07:07:01




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to GarstGuy, 02-06-2006 10:58:06  
If your smart enough to understand that ohm"s law stuff good for you, Otherwise run it around for an hour and then look at the points. If they look new your are OK. If the arm down next to the contacts looks like it got warm you need the resister. Go to autoparts store and tell them you want an ignition resister for 70s-80s Dodge pick up, my sons 85 Dodge 3/4 has one on the firewall. When they ask 4 door/ 2 door?, Red or Blue? with or without air? tell them they are all the same.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

02-06-2006 19:20:16




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to GarstGuy, 02-06-2006 10:58:06  
Garst, if your coil is a true full 12 volt rated coil YOU SHOULD NOT USE ANY EXTERNAL BALLAST..... .... ORRRRR RR If your coil is labeled "12 volts no external ballast" YOU SHOULD NOT USE ANY EXTERNAL BALLAST..... ..... .... otherwise the spark will be weak.

HOWEVER if the coil is labeled "6 volts" or "12 volts for use with an external ballast resistor" THEN YOU NEED THE BALLAST !!!!! !!!!!

If you dont know for sure what the coil is, if its primary as measured between its lil + and - terminals is in the 1.5 to 2.25 or so ohms range, its a 6 volts coil and requires an external ballast. If its in the 2.5 to 3 and over ohms range, its a 12 volt coil and requires no ballast.

As far as the ballast ohms, it ideally should be the same as the coil (so it drops 6 leaving 6 volt on the coil, a 50/50 voltage divider), but they only come in sizes of around 1.5 to 1.85 ohms normally, but its ok so long as its close. Dont forget they need to be power rated units usually over 25 watts. The limiting desing factor is the amount of current the points can switch without burning up prematurely which is in the 4 to 5 amp range and so the coil dont draw excess current and overheat. Thats why n how the combined total of a coil PLUS any ballast is around 3 ohms on a 12 volt system or around 1.5 ohms on a 6 volt system.

John T in Indiana

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
old

02-06-2006 11:53:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to GarstGuy, 02-06-2006 10:58:06  
There should be some writeing on the coil that will say something like. 12 volt coil with internal resister, or 12 volt coil needs external resister. As far as the resister I just go buy a ballast resister made for a mid 70s dodge car or truck. Never had any trouble finding them and most parts store will have them. Shoot most of the time I just go in and ask for a ballast resister and they hand me one, I don't even tell them what its for. But I have gotten 5 plus of them in the last couple years

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mark

02-10-2006 08:44:59




Report to Moderator
 Re: Resistor for 12 volt conversion in reply to old, 02-06-2006 11:53:05  
I sorta have to chuckle when reading all this. I converted a JD 430 several years ago and just did like I was told....go find a single post GM alternator with a built in regulator and buy a ballast resistor. I did just that and it worked fine. In other words, I followed directions and solved a problem. If it ain't broke dont fix it..if it works, it works...leave it alone. Well, the 6 volt system sucked.....so I fixed it like I was told to do. Now had somebody told me to get a 12V coil, I would have done so....no biggie. But, I wasn't and I didn't.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy