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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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1938 B manifold

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Ferguson65

12-16-2005 18:43:52




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I'm in the process of trying to get my B up and running again. It still has the original manifold on it which is very solid. My question is, what was originally supposed to hold the muffler to the manifold? when I got it there was some cobbled up sheetmetal hose clamp job there. Parts manual shows what looks to be a bolt, but is unclear and does not list a seperate number for it. Manifold is off now and looks like there may have been a bolt there at on point, but is broken off now. Any ideas? I want to keep the factory manifold at all costs, I just need to know what to do with it. Thanks
-Scott

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Ferguson65

12-19-2005 07:35:54




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 Re: 1938 B manifold in reply to Ferguson65, 12-16-2005 18:43:52  
Thanks guys for all of your input. The tractor is/ will be sheded, so water isn't that big of an issue. I did fail to notice in the parts book that this would have had a straght pipe originally. How loud is this tractor with a straight pipe? Also, if you have the parts book off here, notice the straight pipe for the 60H engine has a flange at the bottom, to keep water out of this area I assume. Also, I won't cut the hood out, because it only needs minor straightening, and would more than likely be hard to replace, no temp gauge. once again, thanks guys.

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CHALMERSBOB

12-17-2005 18:24:11




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 Re: 1938 B manifold in reply to Ferguson65, 12-16-2005 18:43:52  
ACCORDING TO MY PARTS MANUAL, BEFORE ENGINE SERIAL # BE43896 AC USED A STRAIGHT PIPE, NOT A MUFFLER. THAT WOULD INCLUDE 38, 39, AND SOME 40's
BOB



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Rod (NH)

12-16-2005 20:07:36




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 Re: 1938 B manifold in reply to Ferguson65, 12-16-2005 18:43:52  
Hi Scott,

Yes, there was a bolt that held the muffler to the manifold. It was a 3/8" x 1" long square head machine bolt that was inserted through the hole from the inside. The muffler tubing has a slot in it that fits down past the bolt. A nut and lockwasher were used on the exterior to tighten and clamp the muffler to the manifold. I have used hex head bolts (with a flat washer) as a replacement for the original square head one. In that case, I would tighten down the nut to force the washer to conform to the ID of the manifold before inserting the muffler. I suggest a brass nut be used. That original design works poorly, IMO, when used with replacement through-the-hood style mufflers. The problem is that rain water can run down the muffler inlet tubing and enter the manifold and then get into the cylinders. The original style under-hood muffler prevented that from happening by virtue of the design. I have gone back to the original under-hood style muffler for that very reason. Later designs had different mufflers and different manifolds that used two attaching bolts inserted into tapped holes in the manifold from the exterior. Those mufflers, even though they were through-the-hood, were designed in such a way as to provide a shielded area where the inlet tube enters the manifold in order to keep water out.

third party image Rod

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Ferguson65

12-17-2005 06:54:02




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 Re: 1938 B manifold in reply to Rod (NH), 12-16-2005 20:07:36  
Rod, you say that the bolt was put in from the inside and then a nut was used on the outside. My manifold almost looks like it was threaded on the inside, and the bolt is broken off inside. looking at the parts manual again, ther is a number for the bolt/nut/ lockwasher, just not a seperate callout. Was the bolt head recessed in the manifold? I can try to get a digital pic of what i have if need be. I plan on using the through the hood muffler, even if it needs a raincap, because i just like the look better.

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Dick L

12-17-2005 07:58:35




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 Re: 1938 B manifold in reply to Ferguson65, 12-17-2005 06:54:02  
What Rod said. Square head bolt with the head on the inside. Most of the manifolds, after this many years, will have the bolts rusted tight in the hole. When the bolt is removed it will look like it was threaded on the inside of the hole.

third party image

Notice the type of manifold gasket used in the drawings.

I never saw paint problems on the hoods where any of the old under the hood mufflers were used. If you were to drastically in crease the compression you might see a hotter muffler that would discolor the paint.

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Rod (NH)

12-17-2005 07:47:09




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 Re: 1938 B manifold in reply to Ferguson65, 12-17-2005 06:54:02  
The hole in the side of the manifold was not tapped. The bolt slid through it from the inside. The square head was not recessed into the manifold. The rain cap does not solve the problem as it doesn't prevent water from running down the outside of the muffler inlet tubing and into the manifold by the clearance between the manifold opening and the muffler inlet tubing. The later OEM through-the-hood style mufflers were of a different design with little inlet tubing and required two tapped attaching holes that were present in the later manifolds. There is a picture of the later OEM style through-the-hood muffler on pg 45 of the parts book but it does not show the later manifold or the two attaching bolts. Replacement manifolds will be set up with these two tapped holes but will not have the raised area and tapped holes for attaching the aluminum specification (cover) plate. The Stanley "universal" knock-offs that fit the B are not like the OEM trough-the-hood mufflers. They have a longer inlet tube and the larger diameter body of the muffer usually winds up entirely above the hood. They are the ones that cause the water problem because they are not designed to prevent it, even though they will work with the older manifolds. If you plan on using one of these Stanley jobs, you could try cutting off the inlet tube, allowing only enough length to insert into the manifold. You would, of course, have to slot the end in order to fit around the bolt and you might have to enlarge the opening in your hood to accommodate the muffler diameter. This is only a suggestion to try since I have never done it. It would not appear that you could make the OEM style through-the-hood muffler work well with the older manifold that was not designed to take it - possibly you could modify it in some way though.

I don't know if you know the history of your tractor. Some people with those early manifolds do, in fact, tap the exhaust opening for a length of pipe (1-1/4 dia?) and either use a different muffler or expand the inlet tube to fit down over that length of pipe. That would also solve the water intrusion problem. If you always shed your tractor, the matter may not be a concern to you.

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Dick L Not Worried About

12-17-2005 08:40:29




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 Correct Police in reply to Rod (NH), 12-17-2005 07:47:09  
The picture belows shows how to end water seeping into the manifold forever. I do this to every manifold I work on. Almost every B, or C,I have bought has water damage inside the engine from water seeping in around the muffler pipe that is slid down inside the manifold. All of the Fleetline Olivers came from the factory taped with a pipe nipple that the muffler pipe fit over the outside of the nipple. They had under the hood mufflers from the factory as well.

third party image

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farmerwannabe

12-17-2005 04:30:48




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 Re: 1938 B manifold in reply to Rod (NH), 12-16-2005 20:07:36  
Do you feel an underhood muffler could cause paint problems due to heat compared to a through the hood type? I'm going to eventually fix up our B and was wondering if the heat could cause the paint to peel prematurely.



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Rod (NH)

12-17-2005 05:29:43




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 Re: 1938 B manifold in reply to farmerwannabe, 12-17-2005 04:30:48  
Hi,

I don't remember, since the last time my B had an original underhood muffler was over 40 years ago. At the time, I replaced it with a through-the-hood style one because those were readily available and cheap. I don't recall seeing any blistered paint but at that point there wasn't that much paint left on the tractor anyway. In any event, to prevent the possibility of any heat affecting new paint, I used an aluminized heat shield on the inside of the hood in the area of the muffler. It's available from Eastwood and attaches by a very strong adhesive. I installed the shield after painting and before installation of the hood. If there was ever a problem originally, it has now been solved since there has been no adverse affect on the paint on my working B. And the water-in-the-cylinders problem has gone away with the underhood muffler. My B is not under cover and water in the cylinders has been an annoying problem for many years. It was never enough to cause a hydraulic lock and prevent the tractor from starting but when it was started, there would be a lot of sooty water droplets blown out the exhaust and all over the hood.

Be prepared for a price shock on a new, underhood style, OEM (Nelson) muffler - over $100! There are cheaper knock-offs available but I am advised that they can have an interference problem with the hood. It's real tight under there and small changes in the dimensions can cause a problem.

third party image Rod

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