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Allis Chalmers Discussion Forum
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yet another D17 question...

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BCnT

11-13-2005 20:13:57




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even if its just a head gasket i'm gonna have same problem starting this diesel...i've tried WD40 instead of ether and it didnt help...would a small shot of propane help or hurt??? was thinking of a setup that would give small metered doses into the air cleaner...i dont think its got as much of a bang as ether.




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Butch(OH)

11-14-2005 13:42:00




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to BCnT, 11-13-2005 20:13:57  
Sorry I have not followed the whole story here, looked back a few pages and couldn't find another post, prolly retardation on my part. Ether as a starting aid gets a bad rap for many reasons. People use much more than needed, the old little helped so a lot has to work better deal. Another "reason" is old wive's tales told over and over by good meaning folks who cant back up what they say with a pile of shredded diesel internals. I could say I blew up twenty two tractors using ether so dont use the stuff, thruth is I have blown up exactly NONE. Now the facts are no engine MFG in it's right mind would factory install or allow an ether starting aide on the motors if it blew them up like kernals of popping corn in hot oil like some claim. Allis made availible an ether starting aide, suppose they just wanted to sell a motor everytime some fool pushed the button? Sorry, It just POes me to keep reading the ole blew'er sky high with ether crap thus scaring the unknowing to burn up starters, batteries and spend money they dont need to spend in an attempt to avoid using it. Propane will start it, as will gasoline as will acytelene from you cutting torch but why go to the bother? If these things would start diesels with none of the blow up dangers hows come thousand upon thousands of caces of ether are sold each year while none of the 'sperts has canned propane or acytelene and made a couple million selling it as THE answer for starting cold and wore out diesel motors? To start your old Buda with ether just pull the cap off the manifold as suggested. Spray a quick burst not into but past the outside the the hole while cranking (90% of my ether shot goes all over the back of the generator on the 45D) and she will fire right up. If it starts missing, popping and belching give it another quick spray from 10 feet away and it will clean right up. Done this thousands of times ans have never harmed anengine that I am aware of. There is the other side of the ether deal that needs to be told now and then.

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Sid

11-14-2005 16:10:59




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to Butch(OH), 11-14-2005 13:42:00  
Enquiring mind wants to know. How do you use propane as a starting aid?



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Butch(OH)

11-14-2005 17:17:15




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to Sid, 11-14-2005 16:10:59  
Never seen it done but my mechanic at work says it works well. Apparently he uses propane when there is no ether handy, just opens his hand torch and puts it in the breather. I have seen acytelene used the same way as well as a gas soaked rag held near the breather. As a matter of fact I saw the gasoline soaked rag deal in the operators manual for a piece of equipment years ago.



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Sid

11-14-2005 18:17:46




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to Butch(OH), 11-14-2005 17:17:15  
Thanks Butch(OH) I have used the gasoline soaked rag. Have heard of acytalene. But never heard of propane. From what I understand, of the nature of propane, I don't see how it can be ignited without a spark. Not saying it won't work just that I can't underrstang how.



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Texas Denny

11-14-2005 11:17:05




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to BCnT, 11-13-2005 20:13:57  
I'm a bit late to post so have the advantage of reading everyone's comments.

Two things come to mind.

1) Is the air cleaner clean? I've seen them so stopped up that no air would flow at all.

2) Maybe I'm a bit too careful, but I think starting fluid on an old diesel is asking for problems. The starting fluid is simply too explosive. I've heard of people actually blowing holes in the top of the pistons using starting fluid. I recommend a common spray bottle and gasoline. Both are readily available.

My D-17 diesel starts pretty good down to 35. In Texas, it doesn't get that cold too often. And I don't feel much like working when it's colder than that. When I'm forced, I screw the cap off the side of the manifold, shoot a couple of squirts of gasoline in there. Climb on the seat and it usually starts with a single try. Sometimes, it needs two trys.

My take is that the head gasket blew because of the starting fluid.

Some of the newer diesels actually had a factory installed ether system - saw them on both Case and International. Maybe because Allis knew their diesel's limitations, they went with the manifold heater. Mine worked when I first got it but it doesn't anymore.

And mine does blow white smoke for several minutes after starting so I know it needs rings. But it runs great and has power gallore so I will just let it smoke!

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BCnT

11-14-2005 10:04:28




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 Everybody answering ??? in reply to BCnT, 11-13-2005 20:13:57  
heres what i've done so far to diagnose starting problem
injectors:i just had them tested...theyre within specs and have a good pattern
its got a manifold heater on it but i didnt know that until head gasket had blown...its gonna be checked out while i'm changing gasket.

its got a good 875amp battery in it..i may build some new cables like i put on 6 volt systems with brass clamps and 2 aught welding lead.

bendix started acting up after engine developed problem and i got new bendix,brushes,n bushings on parts list already...i mite add another battery in circuit to see if it helps and run dual cables instead of just parallel.

engine has 0 blowby and had just a hint of whitish blue smoke on startup...nada when it warmed up...i've yet to have to add oil to it even after driving it home approx 30 miles.

did a compression test and all cylinders pegged 250# gauge except between 4-5 and its puffing between them...i know what that is ;)

i havent checked timing yet but i will...it ran so good timing never crossed my mind.

i'm sure i've left some stuff out but i'll keep yall posted as i get it tore down.
thanx
chuck

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Hurst

11-14-2005 11:39:34




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 Re: Everybody answering ??? in reply to BCnT, 11-14-2005 10:04:28  
That thing should have quite a bit of whiteish blue smoke after cranking cold for a few seconds. Next time when you start it, bleed the injection system and then turn it over. If that makes it fire right up, then that is the problem. The reason either would help is because the engine can run off of it for a few strokes that would turn the pump faster than the starter could, getting rid of any little air pockets. Have you had the pump checked too? If you don't have much smoke cranking it, sounds like you are not getting enough fuel. Also, make sure all of your conections to the pump are adjusted correctly, like the cut off and throttle. Good luck

Hurst

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Sid

11-13-2005 22:11:45




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to BCnT, 11-13-2005 20:13:57  
If it had to have help in 80-90 degree weather I am thinking you need to look at something else other than a starting aid. With starting fluid it seems to me you are treating the symptoms rather that curing the problem. Since propane has to be almost a perfect mixture to ignite I don't see how it would help in starting a cold diesel. Most people I know who have had propane say they left them because of starting problems in cold weather. As usual I just have some thoughts no answer.

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old

11-13-2005 20:58:58




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to BCnT, 11-13-2005 20:13:57  
They changed the way WD-40 is made so it doesn't work well as starter fluid. Is your trouble starting because its cold or because you just did some work to it?? If its because of work done can you pull start it??



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BCnT

11-13-2005 21:45:25




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to old, 11-13-2005 20:58:58  
nope...it's been like that for last 25years according to PO...it runs great and starts easy once its warmed up for the day...but let it sit over nite and it wont fire without help and i'm talking 80-90* outside...i'd hate to think about winter...theres 0 blowby and when i did comp test it was pegging a 250# gauge and blowing my arm back when i was trying to hold rubber tip in injector hole...i'm thinkin its got 275+ # in all holes except 4-5 and its puffin between them since gasket blew...as good as that tractor ran i'd have a hard time believing timing or anything else is off...i've never heard such a crisp throttle response out of a diesel in my life and i'm including 2 stroke detroits...it raps up like some of the 289's i useta run in my race cars...thats why i bought it...well it had crisp response before gasket blew anyhow :(

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Hurst

11-14-2005 08:33:13




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to BCnT, 11-13-2005 21:45:25  
Have you had your injectors pop tested? If they need to be rebuilt then it could cause hard starting. Those engines are not very good cold starters. We used to use a little shot of either on ours, but in the end we sold it because of head problems. What we did use though was a magnetic block heater. Worked great on that our 17 diesel, I still have it and use it on the fords if the heater in the block goes out. You can also install a manifold heater on those diesels, ours had one and it would help it start in cold weather. Does it help if you jump it with a good battery on there? If so, probably need a bigger battery. Check your ground and starter cable conections and also, make sure you have at least 1 guage cables, 0 would work even better. IF you really want to fix it up nicely, take the starter off and have it checked out and possible rebuilt. That tractor should be fine in 80 degree weather. If you were talking 50 degree, that would be acceptable in my opinion. Good luck

Hurst

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old

11-14-2005 06:58:04




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to BCnT, 11-13-2005 21:45:25  
Thats could be injectors and or the injector pump. My self I don't do much with diesel but I know some of the little thing really make a differance



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Gatz

11-13-2005 20:27:36




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to BCnT, 11-13-2005 20:13:57  
They used to have an add-on Ether injector made for that purpose....don't know if it's still available.
Ususally it was mounted on the side panel. When a button was pushed, a small solenoid valve at the top of the can opened and a small shot was sent directly to the intake manifold. We used ether on our 58 D17 when it got below 10 or so,.....just unscrewed the large plug and gave it a shot. Don't want to overdo it!

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BCnT

11-13-2005 21:52:19




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to Gatz, 11-13-2005 20:27:36  
thats what i dont understand...when i used ether i stood back by right running board so i could reach switch and sent some fog towards snorkel...not like steady...just a small cloud...mebbe too much...i dunno but i gotta do something different even if i wind up putting a block heater on it...its got the manifold heater but i havent checked it to see if it works...just found out it had one AFTER it blew.

was that ether setup a AC option or aftermarket?

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Gatz

11-14-2005 06:38:09




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to BCnT, 11-13-2005 21:52:19  
Don't recall whether it was dealer/owner installed after-market or AC option, but seems more likely that it was after-market, because of liability issues.

The heater element is just a resistance-type heater...can be checked with continuity tester or ohm meter. If your batteries are suspect, the heater will definately pull them down, not leaving alot for cranking.

Does it smoke white until warmed up ? Does engine have a lot of blowby ? Could be rings are marginal.

Although maybe a last resort; have your injectors tested for pop-off pressure and pattern.

Gatz

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Kent of SW MO

11-14-2005 06:22:58




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 Re: yet another D17 question... in reply to BCnT, 11-13-2005 21:52:19  
Make sure your pump is not timed late. This can cause hard starting. Then install the heaviest battery you can and make sure someone has not installed a small battery cable somewhere in the system. On deisels I use welding cable to make the battery cables. Also make sure the starter is in good shape and the charging circuit is up to par. This should make it start in warm weather without the help you are needing now. BUT the winter time is another story. A heater to heat the engine coolant is the best way to go unless you do not have handy power where you store your tractor.

Kent

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